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Fallshirms are OKW power creep

29 Jul 2021, 17:33 PM
#61
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1093

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jul 2021, 16:10 PMPip


IS are very good infantry straight out of the gate, and become /extremely/ good even just with Bolster. You don't need bolster and double brens for them to be "halfway decent"

The 17 pounder (like all Emplacements) is not great, and decent players will be able to deal with them pretty cost effectively.

The firefly is... Ok, though the SU-85 and Jackson especially are leagues ahead of it.

Brenmandos are very strong, though very expensive... Though SOV not having optimal INF DPS really doesn't matter. That isnt really what their infantry are for.

The Comet isnt the same sort of tank as the Panther. What sort of weird strawman is the idea that you need "15 AT guns and 5 TDs", anyway?

Weren't you complaining about the Vickers not being very good earlier on?

The reason not to play UKF is because they are a fundamentally flawed faction, even if they "fit your playstyle".



How can you define something as fundamentally flawed when you don't have fundamentals to begin with?
Are OST/SOV (original factions) the baseline? Are they the fundamentals?

Brits are fine. They are not flawed in any way. They require a different playstyle compared to other factions. Same as how you see people complaining they can't use grens the same way as rifles, this guy stalled for a comet vs falls. His own fault for not adapting. Not the brits fault. In 1v1, brits do not fare well because there are certain commanders like the ostruppen one that are dominant and aggressive, which hits brits hard, who are defensive and slower in nature.
Truth is, most people can't play brits. Between OKW, the easiest faction to play, and Brits, the hardest one, there is nothing but a void in tactics employed.
I mean, my favourite faction, the USF are beyond useless in long teamgames, but the early and mid game are completely mine to dominate. Brits have a better endgame with Comets for teamgames. They do lack rocket arty like the USF, but again, better tank roster plugs it. Not to mention the good base arty for sneaky pyro IS to infiltrate through the margins and take it out. Just as how I go for a min 19 Pershing to close out the 3v3, and if unsuccessful, need to completely shift the playstyle to Scott smokes + Jacksons to stand a chance vs Tigers/KTs/Ele/Jagds + obers, brits need their own changes during the game to be competitive.
I mean, if vet3 obers delete vet3 2xbar rifles yellow to yellow cover, you won't spam rifles to deal with them. You'll go for indirects to abuse the 4 man model
29 Jul 2021, 17:45 PM
#62
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 210

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jul 2021, 16:10 PMPip


IS are very good infantry straight out of the gate, and become /extremely/ good even just with Bolster. You don't need bolster and double brens for them to be "halfway decent"

The 17 pounder (like all Emplacements) is not great, and decent players will be able to deal with them pretty cost effectively.

The firefly is... Ok, though the SU-85 and Jackson especially are leagues ahead of it.

Brenmandos are very strong, though very expensive... Though SOV not having optimal INF DPS really doesn't matter. That isnt really what their infantry are for.

The Comet isnt the same sort of tank as the Panther. What sort of weird strawman is the idea that you need "15 AT guns and 5 TDs", anyway?

Weren't you complaining about the Vickers not being very good earlier on?

The reason not to play UKF is because they are a fundamentally flawed faction, even if they "fit your playstyle".


my two cents:

infantry sections feel weak for their cost, but become terminators, once you give them the command vehicle aura and brens, even outside of cover

The 17 pounder is a situational weapon, it seems to be best used for elefant deterrence

The firefly pens, hits, and has tulip rockets,

and the vickers hmg is unreliable, but its, like every other MG in the game, better than the maxim
30 Jul 2021, 04:06 AM
#63
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 463

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jul 2021, 16:10 PMPip




The firefly is... Ok, though the SU-85 and Jackson especially are leagues ahead of it.



Personally I would like to see the Tulip Rockets removed from the Firefly and have the Firefly actually be close in usefulness to either SU-85 or Jackson.
30 Jul 2021, 10:22 AM
#64
avatar of FelixTHM

Posts: 447 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jul 2021, 16:10 PMPip


IS are very good infantry straight out of the gate, and become /extremely/ good even just with Bolster. You don't need bolster and double brens for them to be "halfway decent"

The 17 pounder (like all Emplacements) is not great, and decent players will be able to deal with them pretty cost effectively.

The firefly is... Ok, though the SU-85 and Jackson especially are leagues ahead of it.

Brenmandos are very strong, though very expensive... Though SOV not having optimal INF DPS really doesn't matter. That isnt really what their infantry are for.

The Comet isnt the same sort of tank as the Panther. What sort of weird strawman is the idea that you need "15 AT guns and 5 TDs", anyway?

Weren't you complaining about the Vickers not being very good earlier on?

The reason not to play UKF is because they are a fundamentally flawed faction, even if they "fit your playstyle".




What's wrong with the Brits (in 2021) though? They no longer lack snares as badly as they did in 2018/2019, IS are no longer auto-win vs all other infantry, they have a more well-rounded roster now. Their super OP commander abilities were toned down to be more in line with other factions'. The lack of indirect fire options is still irritating, but that's about it.
30 Jul 2021, 10:24 AM
#65
avatar of FelixTHM

Posts: 447 | Subs: 1

Also, rank 470 premade 3v3 is really bad. But we could already tell from the "3 squads of elite infantry defeated my 2 unupgraded mainline squads" premise of this post.
30 Jul 2021, 13:33 PM
#66
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 210



Personally I would like to see the Tulip Rockets removed from the Firefly and have the Firefly actually be close in usefulness to either SU-85 or Jackson.


Why is the firefly regarded as shitty compared to the other 2 TDs, when it has a great penning gun and rockets that basically K.O. tanks upon connecting
30 Jul 2021, 13:50 PM
#67
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1093

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jul 2021, 13:33 PMKatukov


Why is the firefly regarded as shitty compared to the other 2 TDs, when it has a great penning gun and rockets that basically K.O. tanks upon connecting


It's not. Firefly is great. It does have lower penetration so it's not as great vs super heavy tanks with 400 or 350 armour. But personally never had an issue killing anything with it. Once vetted it becomes a monster.
30 Jul 2021, 14:19 PM
#68
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 466

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jul 2021, 13:33 PMKatukov


Why is the firefly regarded as shitty compared to the other 2 TDs, when it has a great penning gun and rockets that basically K.O. tanks upon connecting

because it is slow (has acceleration of a heavy tank, lol), penetration does not scale with vet and poor ROF. Yes, vetted it 3-shots a medium tank, but, to be honest in the same time frame SU-85 and Jackson can do 4 shots and deal same amount of damage.

Tulips are great and it can occasionally bounce a p4 shot, lmao. But that is all.
30 Jul 2021, 14:36 PM
#69
avatar of Geblobt

Posts: 179

Firefly suffers from the same powercreep problem as the kingtiger. Both are alright in a vacuum, but get incredible strong with tank commander aura/heat shells. So you cant buff them without adjustment of these abilities.
30 Jul 2021, 14:47 PM
#70
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 210


because it is slow (has acceleration of a heavy tank, lol), penetration does not scale with vet and poor ROF. Yes, vetted it 3-shots a medium tank, but, to be honest in the same time frame SU-85 and Jackson can do 4 shots and deal same amount of damage.

Tulips are great and can occasionally bounce a p4 shot, lmao. But that is all.

sounds like its a perfectly fine vehicle tbh, the flaw of it is that its simply not an su-85, which is not a flaw due to how the game is supposed to be designed


the tulips should not be removed though, it would be such a waste to remove those, for no actual gain whatsoever lol
30 Jul 2021, 15:17 PM
#71
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 466

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jul 2021, 14:47 PMKatukov

sounds like its a perfectly fine vehicle tbh, the flaw of it is that its simply not an su-85, which is not a flaw due to how the game is supposed to be designed


the tulips should not be removed though, it would be such a waste to remove those, for no actual gain whatsoever lol

it is not bad, it's other 2 allied TDs are several tiers above it and I provided arguments why. I'd describe FF as an OK TD. If anything it might be a tad too expensive.

Tulips should definitely stay. It would be madness to remove them.
30 Jul 2021, 17:53 PM
#72
avatar of KoRneY

Posts: 536

They're pretty slow too. Really slow actually.
30 Jul 2021, 18:33 PM
#73
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 463

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Jul 2021, 13:33 PMKatukov


Why is the firefly regarded as shitty compared to the other 2 TDs, when it has a great penning gun and rockets that basically K.O. tanks upon connecting



SU-85
Acceleration : 2.1


M36 Jackson
Acceleration : 3


Sherman Firefly
Acceleration : 1.6

Tiger
Acceleration : 1.8

King Tiger
Acceleration : 1.4


Firefly has acceleration similar to that of heavy tanks. Pretty much everything penetrates the firefly so it is vulnerable for longer periods of time compared to other tank destroyers since it takes so long to move on top of having 8 seconds of reload time with a Turret Rotation speed similar to the King Tiger. With Turret Rotation that slow having a Turret makes little difference.

If a Jackson was under threat it will speedily zoom out of harms way with no issue.

SU-85 can self spot for itself and isn't reliant on anything to screen for it and is also faster than the Sherman Firefly.




31 Jul 2021, 00:08 AM
#74
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5249




SU-85
Acceleration : 2.1


M36 Jackson
Acceleration : 3


Sherman Firefly
Acceleration : 1.6

Tiger
Acceleration : 1.8

King Tiger
Acceleration : 1.4


Firefly has acceleration similar to that of heavy tanks. Pretty much everything penetrates the firefly so it is vulnerable for longer periods of time compared to other tank destroyers since it takes so long to move on top of having 8 seconds of reload time with a Turret Rotation speed similar to the King Tiger. With Turret Rotation that slow having a Turret makes little difference.

If a Jackson was under threat it will speedily zoom out of harms way with no issue.

SU-85 can self spot for itself and isn't reliant on anything to screen for it and is also faster than the Sherman Firefly.





The Jackson should never be used as an example for determining balance because it stands in contempt of the very idea.

I'd argue that the FF is the most balanced of the allied TDs as su85 gets a bit too much pen as far as I'm concerned and self spot should be a vet ability instead of a persistent ability.

TDs SHOULD be vulnerable if unsupported. The FF is a prime example because IF it can plink away you will feel it. If there is no support they will Rue the day. In a similar case the SU85, while a bit more zippy, is a casemate and can run and gun (the FF walks and guns I guess) plus in a pinch the FF can fuck your day with tulips if you chase it. It SHOULD get more pen with vet, but I maintain its the best designed and balanced of the allied TDs
31 Jul 2021, 00:33 AM
#75
avatar of MassaDerek

Posts: 68

Also, rank 470 premade 3v3 is really bad. But we could already tell from the "3 squads of elite infantry defeated my 2 unupgraded mainline squads" premise of this post.

Considering the fact that ranks go up to 5000, rank 470 is 75th percentile atleast.Anything below rank 800 or so is "good" according to basically everybody I've talked to.Considering how few matches I've actually played with my teammates(less than 20 at this point in this particular premade lobby) thats great actually.
Playing enough matches on it's own i.e. rotting on the game can get you up to this point, regardless of your rank or winrate, because the ranking system is stupid.
Nice strawman btw, the point of my post wasn't that "elite inf beat my unupgraded IS wtff relic" but rather as to the circumstances of as to how they do it.
31 Jul 2021, 00:42 AM
#76
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 745




[TD stats]



Jackson is intentionally OP (you can ask the balance team for this) because USF late game suffers horrendously without it. The old Jackson was a 3 hit target practice and frankly abysmal. They need it to stay in the game with their weak armour. UKF have no such problems late game and in fact are very powerful late game. Soviets have heavy armour and their casemate TD has the focused sight ability to stay relevant.
Pip
31 Jul 2021, 02:04 AM
#77
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1518


Considering the fact that ranks go up to 5000, rank 470 is 75th percentile atleast.Anything below rank 800 or so is "good" according to basically everybody I've talked to.Considering how few matches I've actually played with my teammates(less than 20 at this point in this particular premade lobby) thats great actually.
Playing enough matches on it's own i.e. rotting on the game can get you up to this point, regardless of your rank or winrate, because the ranking system is stupid.
Nice strawman btw, the point of my post wasn't that "elite inf beat my unupgraded IS wtff relic" but rather as to the circumstances of as to how they do it.


The circumstance of how they did it was that he invested way more into his infantry than you did though, by virtue of you spending 500MP on Caches.
31 Jul 2021, 04:10 AM
#78
avatar of FelixTHM

Posts: 447 | Subs: 1


Considering the fact that ranks go up to 5000, rank 470 is 75th percentile atleast.Anything below rank 800 or so is "good" according to basically everybody I've talked to.Considering how few matches I've actually played with my teammates(less than 20 at this point in this particular premade lobby) thats great actually.
Playing enough matches on it's own i.e. rotting on the game can get you up to this point, regardless of your rank or winrate, because the ranking system is stupid.
Nice strawman btw, the point of my post wasn't that "elite inf beat my unupgraded IS wtff relic" but rather as to the circumstances of as to how they do it.




The circumstances were that you had 40% less manpower invested in anti-infantry capability than your opponent and are whining "power creep/imbalance".

Seriously the active playerbase is so small that I'm almost top 50 with Brits. The players ranked in the thousands are almost all people who downloaded COH2 during the free weekend, played 3 games of multiplayer, got rekt, and never came back. 470 in premade 3v3 means you understand some of the basics and are better than those players, which is the skill equivalent of "I can tie my own shoelaces". "Good" is as much of a stretch as "fry-cook in McDonald's = rich because there's a billion people starving in Africa". I saw literally nobody in this thread (or in the coh2 community) agreeing with you that rank 800 is anywhere close to good.

Fyi I was ranked 700 after playing my first 5 or 10 placement matches ever - at that point I didn't even know about tank destroyers vs generalist tanks in COH2, I built Panthers to fight infantry, didn't know sandbags and mines existed, had no clue about infantry dps and RA - I was fighting Grenadiers at long range with my Riflemen and wondering why I was losing. That's approximately the level you're at right now so your focus should be on 1) improving your skills
2) improving your strategy

31 Jul 2021, 06:30 AM
#79
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12195 | Subs: 1


...
Firefly has acceleration similar to that of heavy tanks. Pretty much everything penetrates the firefly so it is vulnerable for longer periods of time compared to other tank destroyers since it takes so long to move on top of having 8 seconds of reload time with a Turret Rotation speed similar to the King Tiger. With Turret Rotation that slow having a Turret makes little difference.
...

FF has an armor of 160 an thus a Pz4 firing at max range has 69% chance to penetrate it.

(edited to correct percentage thanks for point out.)

31 Jul 2021, 07:09 AM
#80
avatar of MassaDerek

Posts: 68

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Jul 2021, 02:04 AMPip


The circumstance of how they did it was that he invested way more into his infantry than you did though, by virtue of you spending 500MP on Caches.

The circumstance that he only has to pay 320MP and pay 60MUNI whilst having a online PzAuth to get terminator elite inf whilst I have to spend 45+ fuel and 270MUNI+be in green cover to fight against him and have a measurable chance to win or get Brenmandos, not manpower or where I spent it.I don't expect stock IS to win against them and that wasn't the point of the thread.
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