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The state of Sturmtiger

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26 Jul 2021, 18:21 PM
#61
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 459



Hmm ... if it was even done by Hans and not only by ppl like Skippy then I guess it was a valid change. But why didn't they simply make it impossible to reload or at least start reloading while under fire?

Elpern did it, but vs a much weaker opponent. I think you can find the game somewhere in AE's YT channel
Imo following changes made ST very strong, not removing of the decrew mechanic:

Example of undershooting AVRE:
26 Jul 2021, 21:00 PM
#62
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3200 | Subs: 1


Imo following changes made ST very strong, not removing of the decrew mechanic

No the removal of decrew also plays a huge part. It allows you to be MUCH more aggressive with the ST, as you can safely reload closer to the front than you used too

They definitely needed to remove it for multiple reasons, however they shouldve required it to be standstill during reloading again like it used to. The removal of the decrew was a huge change for it's performance
26 Jul 2021, 21:36 PM
#63
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 461

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Jul 2021, 00:46 AMGarrett
This thing is completely broken, probably the most broken unit atm.


Agreed with this. If you want to see a good example of the balance team being biased look at how crappy the Churchill Avre is in comparison to the SturmTiger.

Pip
26 Jul 2021, 22:43 PM
#64
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1498



Agreed with this. If you want to see a good example of the balance team being biased look at how crappy the Churchill Avre is in comparison to the SturmTiger.



To be fair, this was quite the opposite for the longest time.
26 Jul 2021, 23:00 PM
#65
avatar of OrangePest

Posts: 454 | Subs: 1

The core problem really just boils down to 2x mgs, because anytime you want to push in on the Sturmtiger/tank or whatever your infantry will be insta suppressed and cut to pieces by volks/grens in sandbags while your tanks get zoned out by 2x at. Meaning effectively any sort of play that's active or aggressive to punish overextension (in this case the Sturmtiger which will go forward shoot and then fuck off back behind the lines) becomes nigh impossible.

I would slash its range substantially until the other real issues get tackled (IE broken MGs), but honestly, it's unlikely to happen, the balance team seems pretty insistent on having 2x mg be the standard every game and for campy matches to be the go-to. So RIP i guess.
1 Aug 2021, 16:01 PM
#66
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1090

Sturmtiger needs to have a weakness. Right now it's one of the most oppressive tanks in COH2. Played vs 3x sturms and 3x KTs right now and it was not fun at all. Shooting from fog of war, over hedges and sightblockers. Bouncing pretty much everything below a TD and wit the HP to back it up. Not to mention heat shells for JP4s.

In the teamgame format, it has no weaknesses. The AOE is large enough that even if you retreat the moment you see it, chances are the AOE will get 3+ models or more if you have 2 squads in control. It's not fun when you are winning for 35 minutes but can't really get that VP lead only to be completely broken by the cheese heavy tank spam. Why not reintroduce KT/SturmT choice? Why not add some sort of counterplay vs it that does not boil down to "spend 3x the worth of resources of a sturmtiger to kill one"
1 Aug 2021, 17:44 PM
#67
avatar of Ashmole

Posts: 58

There also needs to be a way to toggle the ear ringing effect. It's gotten very old and affects other parts of the game by making it hard to hear cues from other units.
1 Aug 2021, 18:23 PM
#68
avatar of FelixTHM

Posts: 444 | Subs: 1

What about introducing a max models killed limit on ST/AVRE just like what they did for the T70?
1 Aug 2021, 18:40 PM
#69
avatar of Porygon

Posts: 2751

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Jul 2021, 22:43 PMPip


To be fair, this was quite the opposite for the longest time.


That thing being trash for 6 years wasn't a legit reason why it should be broken.

To be fair, it is fun to play with because it is effective, easy to use, and put a great mid finger to blobber. But playing against it is pain in the ass.
1 Aug 2021, 18:47 PM
#70
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1090



That thing being trash for 6 years wasn't a legit reason why it should be broken.

To be fair, it is fun to play with because it is effective, easy to use, and put a great mid finger to blobber. But playing against it is pain in the ass.


You don't have to play against blobbers for that to be effective. If you wipe one squad with one shell, it's a clear win. Once you vet it up, being able to self spot and shoot much further is downright OP. I seldom call something OP or UP but this is batsh** crazy OP in teamgames.
2 Aug 2021, 04:56 AM
#71
avatar of Tetranet

Posts: 195

What about introducing a max models killed limit on ST/AVRE just like what they did for the T70?


The Brummbar had a similar treatment as well. This along with a CP and cost increase should be good.
MMX
2 Aug 2021, 08:40 AM
#72
avatar of MMX

Posts: 828 | Subs: 1



The Brummbar had a similar treatment as well. This along with a CP and cost increase should be good.


When and how did this happen? IIRC the Brummbär is still totally capable of wiping any number of models as long as they're bunched up closely enough or have low enough health - which both the ST and AVRE should also be able to do.

Now you can argue that the OHK radius of these heavy caliber shells may be a tad bit too large, but giving it the T-70 or Ostwind treatment would IMHO cause more problems than it would solve. The model kill limit may work well for units with high rate of fire that don't rely on alpha damage to be effective, but if a unit that fires one shell per minute doesn't even have the chance to nuke a squad on any occasion it will be rendered useless. On top of that, where would you even draw the line - 4 models? 5 models? or better 6? The effectiveness of the ST/AVRE would heavily depend on the squad size of the target you're facing, with low-model count units like (p)grens, pathfinders or 4-man sections likely drawing the short end of the stick while the already durable 7-man cons get a huge survivability boost. Not a good solution in my book and there are better ways to tune down the ST, like revisiting cost/timing, range, mobility (especially when reloading) or, if absolutely necessary, the AoE values.
2 Aug 2021, 12:56 PM
#73
avatar of empirescurropt

Posts: 695

umm for me its ok the big issue its realy the front armor not geting pen by at guns too many miss shots , it should be keep like this it a reduce on front armor of 100hp so the at guns can at least pen and dmg before geting kill but could be RNG a bit involved on "fight" but i like its OK loking before patchs sturmtiger was a obsolete unit at least now you can use it on the battle!
2 Aug 2021, 13:14 PM
#74
avatar of Tetranet

Posts: 195

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Aug 2021, 08:40 AMMMX


When and how did this happen? IIRC the Brummbär is still totally capable of wiping any number of models as long as they're bunched up closely enough or have low enough health - which both the ST and AVRE should also be able to do.


You're right, it's not a hardcap, this is the patch note I vaguely had in mind:


Brummbar
The Brummbar is having its AOE adjusted to reduce its ability to wipe out full health units on the first shot, but still able to deal significant damage on misses.
• AOE distance changed from 1.25/2.5/3.75 to 0.625/1.25/6; applies to both auto-attack and bunker-buster
• AOE damage changed from 1/0.3/0.05 to 1/0.35/0.2; applies to both auto-attack and bunker-buster
3 Aug 2021, 07:24 AM
#76
avatar of wuff

Posts: 1527 | Subs: 1

The ST has always been an obnoxious unit, it is just worse now than it has ever been.
3 Aug 2021, 12:54 PM
#77
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 2192

when Sturmtiger is OP for you..than wait to learn the power of a AVRE...which has a turret, can reload on full speed, is more mobile, faster shot animation...
3 Aug 2021, 13:10 PM
#78
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 459

when Sturmtiger is OP for you..than wait to learn the power of a AVRE...which has a turret, can reload on full speed, is more mobile, faster shot animation...

for the love of RNGesus, please read the first post of the thread.
3 Aug 2021, 14:44 PM
#79
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 331

when Sturmtiger is OP for you..than wait to learn the power of a AVRE...which has a turret, can reload on full speed, is more mobile, faster shot animation...





ISU has no turret unlike KV2, but it is rated a lot higher in teamgames. Guess why.


Range 35 vs 40 / suffers from collison(shot hits earlier which was fixed in ST in this patch) much less max AoE.
3 Aug 2021, 15:02 PM
#80
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 753 | Subs: 1

You are completly missing the fact that AVRE is not map dependant what so ever.

Unlike ST, AVRE can always just pop out from any sight blocker (even with some micro with turret already rotated), deliver the shot move back, while ST requare either have to move in and out in a strate line or he would have to rotate increasing its firing time. Also lets not forget that AVRE benifits from Hammer speed boost aswell.

Not to mention that if ST is hard to destoy, AVRE is practically almost immortal unless its target by litteraly AT army. Not only it has better frotanl armor then ST, but even the rear armor is hard to penetrate by anything lesser Panther, not counting stugs and JP4 (but good luck getting them to shoot rear to begin with).

Also I dont really unrestand what actually make ST too good right now? Its pretty much the same as it was before, with the only difference being that its now works properly without collision bugs.

You seem to never faced players who was able to play with it properly before the change, trust me it was much-MUCH worst then it is right now, because of how fast projectile was.

Trust me, if Stuka zu Fuss got its UI changed to show where rockets will land, there would have been 1000 theards about how broken it become.

Point is both AVRE and ST should have never existed in a first place. They are always will be either BS or meme units. ST was meme before with 90% of player base unable to use it properly and AVRE was a BS. Now every one can use ST normally and it suddenly OP.

Best case scenario, is to make both AVRE and ST a meme units again, since we have no chance of deleting them from the game anyway.
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