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Commander Update Beta 2021 - General Feedback

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12 Jun 2021, 13:25 PM
#281
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 331

Any expected date of releasing stable commander patch?
I thought I've seen it will be released on last Sunday.
12 Jun 2021, 16:07 PM
#282
avatar of Zapartos

Posts: 10

Hi all,

I’ve been experimenting with playing the commissar officer and while fun I think it’s survivability is lacking I think limits its usefulness in supporting your troops.as you will need to retreat it earlier.

What do you guys think about switching the received accuracy bonus from Vet 3 to Vet 2 for all officer type units?

I think that all officer type units would benefit receiving their received accuracy bonus from Vet 3 to 2
And swap the accuracy buff that is currently in Vet 2 to 3
This will help the officer units support better since they’re more utility than raw dps units. This will help them fulfil their supportive role.

Currently USF officers and OST artillery field officers already have this Vet 2 received accuracy buffs

The Soviet Commissar, OKW Sturm officer, UKF Assault Officer don’t have the Vet 2 received accuracy bonus.

The Sturm officer may not need such a big change as it already has a received accuracy of 0.8 out of the box. Perhaps a split
Received accuracy bonus from vet 2 and 3? (Like -6 at Vet 2 and -10 at Vet 3?)

Do you guys think this would make officers too strong?

(I got the unit information from
https://www.coh2.org/guides/29892/the-company-of-heroes-2-veterancy-

https://coh2.win/
12 Jun 2021, 21:00 PM
#283
avatar of Lewka

Posts: 298

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jun 2021, 05:19 AMMMX




i think this had more to do with the fact that the last planned iteration of the beta wasn't stable and fixing it would have bound resources that were better spent wrapping up, deploying (and later fixing) the actual patch.

and now that redeploying the hopefully fixed patch might only be a couple of days away, what sense would it make to waste time trying to get the beta to work?



Yeah that makes sense honestly. Just really liked the latest changes, but if the patch is just a couple to a few days away then yeah it doesn't make much sense to bother updating the beta further I suppose
13 Jun 2021, 00:51 AM
#284
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 212


What do you guys think about switching the received accuracy bonus from Vet 3 to Vet 2 for all officer type units?

I think that all officer type units would benefit receiving their received accuracy bonus from Vet 3 to 2
And swap the accuracy buff that is currently in Vet 2 to 3
This will help the officer units support better since they’re more utility than raw dps units. This will help them fulfil their supportive role.

Currently USF officers and OST artillery field officers already have this Vet 2 received accuracy buffs

The Soviet Commissar, OKW Sturm officer, UKF Assault Officer don’t have the Vet 2 received accuracy bonus.


I can't speak for the other officer units, but I personally think that's waay too much for the commissar squad. Not only does it become a 6 man squad at vet 1, it's got AoE healing (and of course it has the squad buffs and force retreat). If it gets recieved accuracy buff so early in vet, I think it will be able to stay on the field for waay too long and just make OST life hell.
13 Jun 2021, 08:49 AM
#285
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 457

Commissar does not need a rec accuracy buff and it is not really intended to be a pure combat unit with how strong its abilities are. Thematically the only thing the Commissar really needs is a Forward Retreat Point like Ability like the Major as it would make sense due to "Not one Step Back" being a thing.
13 Jun 2021, 09:22 AM
#286
avatar of Kasarov
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 410 | Subs: 2

Commissar does not need a rec accuracy buff and it is not really intended to be a pure combat unit with how strong its abilities are. Thematically the only thing the Commissar really needs is a Forward Retreat Point like Ability like the Major as it would make sense due to "Not one Step Back" being a thing.

Just going to leave this here...

I don't disagree with FRP, but this whole 227 stereotype needs to die.

Aside from FRP, having the revolver change into a PPSh at vet 3 akin to Sturm Officer's StG44 would be awesome since the Commissar literally has a PPSh ammo pouch on his model.
13 Jun 2021, 09:51 AM
#287
avatar of Zapartos

Posts: 10

Thanks for the feedback guys.

I do agree officers aren’t frontline units. However it doesn’t make sense to me the inconsistency for received accuracy buffs between factions.

OST and USF officers do have received accuracy buffs at
Vet 2. Do you consider them overturned/overpowered?

Also I think the commissar heal ability is not very useful (this is from a 1v1 perspective)
Because:
1) Soviet troops tend to drop more models due to relatively higher received accuracy (to make up for their larger squad sizes) so you tend to have to retreat to reinforce anyway.

2) It’s one of the worst heals in the game taking 30sec to heal all (Ost Med kits heal in 20secs) and you have to be within in range 10 of the commissar to receive the heals and it stops if you go outside that range.

So probably the only time you use the heal is if you’ve completely forced the opposition to retreat which is pretty rare and even if that happens you can’t cap the map because you have to blob up to receive the heals.


If it was changed to a dropped Med pack like the OKW stormpio one it would be much better for 15 munitions

Honestly though I’d much rather the Commissar have a smoke grenade with cool down tied to his normal grenade than the very niche/borderline useless heal it has currently.
13 Jun 2021, 10:11 AM
#288
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12155 | Subs: 1

...

Your analysis is simply flawed.

Commissar heal is great it allows for troops to stay at the front-line especially if one combines it with merge.
13 Jun 2021, 12:28 PM
#289
avatar of Zapartos

Posts: 10

Thanks for the feedback everyone,

All interesting points. Perhaps Commissar received accuracy buff is not needed, but the inconsistency for officers between factions doesn't make sense to me.

@ Vipper, I'd welcome you to show me what I haven't considered in my analysis. What you wrote was just a statement with no analysis at all.

Yes the Commissar heal looks good on paper and yes you can use it with conscript merge.

However in an actual game, in my view Commissar heal is pretty mediocre.

Allow me to analyse further (and I welcome your input to show me things I haven't considered)

Commissar on field healing doesn't suit the Soviet faction design.

See my previous analysis for more detail but it boils down to:

1) Soviets drop lots of models so healing is less efficient.
Because:
a) They have a relatively higher received accuracy. (To counter balance high model count)

b) They have to flank to get close to win engagements (at that range while they will tend to win the engagement, they will usually drop a lot of models due to close range being deadlier)

2) After an engagement half the Soviet forces are off the field anyway due to retreating from getting MG suppressed, so you have less squads on field to heal anyway.

3) The Soviet units that remain need to be mobile to keep capping/flanking and can't afford to blob up to receive a 10 range 30 sec slow group hug heal.
Because by that time the opponent's healed up and reinforced forces will be returning to the field and your diminished forces won't be engaging anyway and they want to be capping/mining points.

I'd say perhaps the only other use case for the Commissar heal is for team weapons, but then again, the Commissar needs to stick close to the support weapon and there is less capping so you're on the back foot as Soviets if you're not capping.

In the late game when it's relatively more static and hiding behind sandbags vs tanks, you're not going to use heal anyway and you'll need to retreat from tank shells so you're not getting wiped.

Now contrast this to say OST medkit healing is much more useful for OST faction design.

OST usually has more MGs and will suppress and force retreats. So as OST if you've outplayed your opponent, you usually have more forces around with which to heal.

Also Grens have a base lower received accuracy and have the option of backing off to keep their engagements more favourable to them and so they are less likely to drop models in an engagement. Therefore they will tend to have more models left to heal up after an engagement.

So the way I see it what works for one faction doesn't necessarily work for another.

Again I think a better ability for the Commissar would be a smoke grenade that shares a cooldown with the frag grenade rather than a heal that is not efficient for the Soviet faction design.

I'd welcome a counter analysis.
13 Jun 2021, 13:22 PM
#290
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5248

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Jun 2021, 02:00 AMClarity


They have no intention to allow the community to test the most recent changes for some reason.

It might be reserved for those on the inside track, the ones that get huge changes pushed through into the final version without any discussion or testing.
13 Jun 2021, 14:07 PM
#292
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5248



If there is one thing you'll learn, is that the name Vipper is well suited. Don't expect arguments or reasons or any sort of discussion. It will all boil down to "I'm right, you're wrong, simple as that" discussions.


That's not true. While they often get bogged down on symantics there is almost always value from their input. They also have numbers down like nobody else. Tone can be taken poorly but that's an issue with all text based media.
13 Jun 2021, 14:12 PM
#293
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 749 | Subs: 1



I'd welcome a counter analysis.


Alright. Soviets do drop models more often thats true, but at the same time they have merge. Medkits are healing all members of the squad, so you always can merge with the most valuable unit you have plus on top of that use commisar medkit on this squad in case conscript squad you merged with was damaged.

Thats why and for what commisar has a medkit.

You dont use it on your mainlines and you dont nessesery use it all the time, the same way Ost is not spamming medkits (unless VSL), but use them on either support weapons of the field or snipers\elites without retreating.

13 Jun 2021, 17:04 PM
#294
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12155 | Subs: 1

...

I'd welcome a counter analysis.

Commissar healing is way better than Ostheer medic kits:
It is available from vet 0
It is an AOE healing thus requires less micro and heal fatser
Most importantly it is free

If you are using conscripts aggressively you probably better of not bothering with commissar at all and getting base heal instead.

If you are using Commissar in its intended role providing buffs to squads its heal is good.
14 Jun 2021, 00:39 AM
#295
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 212

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Jun 2021, 09:22 AMKasarov

Just going to leave this here...

I don't disagree with FRP, but this whole 227 stereotype needs to die.

Aside from FRP, having the revolver change into a PPSh at vet 3 akin to Sturm Officer's StG44 would be awesome since the Commissar literally has a PPSh ammo pouch on his model.


Except that would fit with the verbage of order 227. Did he say that the commissar would shoot troops when they retreat? No, he said the commissar should have a retreat point, preventing troops from retreating past him. Soviet soldiers themselves called order 227 the "Not One Step Back" order, and those words were used in the order itself.
14 Jun 2021, 05:37 AM
#296
avatar of Kasarov
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 410 | Subs: 2



Except that would fit with the verbage of order 227. Did he say that the commissar would shoot troops when they retreat? No, he said the commissar should have a retreat point, preventing troops from retreating past him. Soviet soldiers themselves called order 227 the "Not One Step Back" order, and those words were used in the order itself.


The key point of that link was that Order 227 is that it was directed towards officers, not enlisted men. The other key point was that orderly retreats are allowed, and since you order all retreats in the game (sans Sturm Officier, but there's no way to differentiate that with the game tools) none of the retreats in the game are disorderly retreats.

Justifying a retreat-stopping ability with Order 227 plays much more into the stereotype that no retreats were allowed. I'm not disagreeing that an FRP on commissar would be nice, but leave 227 out of the justification.
14 Jun 2021, 13:26 PM
#297
avatar of Zapartos

Posts: 10

Hi Everyone,

Great points for a good discussion. I think Forward Retreat Point would be an interesting idea, maybe at Vet 2 or something like that.

@ Vipper
Thanks for putting forward your analysis. Interesting points you bring up.

Here's my take:
Commissar healing vs Medkits are different abilities and to analyse it deeply we need to consider not just "factual spreadsheet numbers" but also faction design and "Ingame/On the battlefield" in context

I think "on the field" context may be one aspect that you may have neglected to consider when analysing these two abilities.

Let me give you an example:

Yes Commissar heal comes at Vet 0 (Factual spreadsheet number)

But consider the in game context. The Gren medkits heal will be accessible mostly likely earlier than when Commissar becomes available.

Commissar comes at CP2 which is approx 5-6 minutes? OST would have at least 1 or 2 Grens at Vet 1 by then.
("Ingame/On the battlefield" in context)

Commissar heal is AOE and yes it likely requires less micro. However this works against the Soviet faction design as the range is 10 and the heal duration takes 30 sec.

The disadvantage for the Soviet faction is that to receive the full benefit of the heal, all units need to stay within 10 range of the Commissar.
This is detrimental to the Soviet way of pressuring, capping and mining. If they stop to do this it will hurt their aggressive game.

This ability btw is the same as the UKF "Distribute Medical Supplies"
It works for UKF because they are like OST a more defensive orientated faction.

Let me put it another way. Take the OKW Sturmpios their 45 muni x3 Medical Supplies healing ability that drops the medkit and any unit in range gets the heal and then they can get back on the field to cap and pressure (This is a perfect ability for the OKW being the more aggressive faction compared to OST).

Now imagine that this x3 medkit ability was switched for the Commissar/UKF ability. No more dropped medkits all the OKW units have to hug the Sturmpio squad and if they leave to go cap another area of the map they lose the heal. It would be detrimental to the way OKW plays because the healing units all have to blob up and not have the flexibility to pressure different areas of the map. I'd argue this would make OKW weaker.

This is why Commissar heal is not a good fit for the Soviet faction.
If they got the OKW one instead (perhaps just 1 medkit for 20 muni or something it would make much more sense and synergise with the way they play rather than be a detriment to it)

Your other point re Medkits costing 10 muni.
Yes they do have a cost but honestly I'd much rather pay muni cost for a heal that works for the Soviet faction than a free one that I may use once every 10 games.
(An ability that is not used is just a dead ability)

Also the last point about the duration of the ability:
Gren medkits last 20 sec
Commissar/UKF lasts 30 sec
It is much better to have a shorter duration (higher rate of heal)
(https://www.coh2.org/guides/88945/the-coh2-ability-guide-mark-2-0)


Your second last point:
"If you are using conscripts aggressively you probably better of not bothering with commissar at all and getting base heal instead."

I don't really understand what you mean by this. How else do you use conscripts if not aggressively? Again going back to faction design, if Soviets don't pressure in the early game OST and OKW will tech to late game and crush them with their T4 units.

In conclusion:
My point is that faction design and "on the battlefield" context should be an integral part of any analysis of any unit/ability not just "factual spreadsheet numbers". Or else you'll be missing a significant part of the picture.

Which is important given that COH2 is a game built around soft counters, directional cover and rear armour. Context is an integral part of the game. It doesn't matter if the DPS "factual spreadsheet number" of my MG is higher than your infantry unit in it's fire arc. If that MG gets flanked by said infantry unit, MG loses. ("Ingame/On the battlefield" context)

Thanks for reading this huge post!
https://www.coh2.org/post/update/post_id/868704#
14 Jun 2021, 13:44 PM
#298
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12155 | Subs: 1



@ Vipper
Thanks for putting forward your analysis. Interesting points you bring up....

You are welcomed.

As you point out Commissar's heal is closer to UKF heal and further far away from ostheer.

I am not sure how many games you have as ostheer but imo it simply not viable for Ostheer player to heal only from medic kit unless they are using the free one. Ostheer needs those munition for LMG upgrades/fuast/mines.

The duration does not really say much either since:
A) Commisar heal multiple squads, medic kit one and there an animation and time that 1 or two squads need to immobile for heal to work.

B) Total amount of heal/speed of heal unclear (I have not check this stat) so the duration of the ability on its own does not really say much.


As for use aggressive conscripts let my try to explain in more detail what I mean.

If one use a conscript army with ourah flanking/molotovs then one would be better getting base heal since one would probably sustain casualties and have to reinforce anyway.

Commissar on the other hand offer a different ways of playing:
either blobbing around the commissar so one can benefit from his other abilities like "Not One Step Back"/"Hold the Line" with these abilities working better in prolonged cover to cover fights
or
defending in cover where the commissar can move and heal after the fight
or
the use of Penal
or
the use of support weapons
In these situation aoe heal is great.
14 Jun 2021, 18:05 PM
#299
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 212

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Jun 2021, 05:37 AMKasarov


The key point of that link was that Order 227 is that it was directed towards officers, not enlisted men. The other key point was that orderly retreats are allowed, and since you order all retreats in the game (sans Sturm Officier, but there's no way to differentiate that with the game tools) none of the retreats in the game are disorderly retreats.

Justifying a retreat-stopping ability with Order 227 plays much more into the stereotype that no retreats were allowed. I'm not disagreeing that an FRP on commissar would be nice, but leave 227 out of the justification.


That's not even completely true. It was partially directed at officers, but who do you think was doing the retreating? The soldiers. So, using a commissar to halt a retreat all the way back to base does in fact fit with the spirit of Not One Step Back. Which, again, nobody had implied that the commissar would be shooting the troops, just that they would halt them from retreating further. And that, again, fits wholly within the verbage of the order.
15 Jun 2021, 00:20 AM
#300
avatar of Lewka

Posts: 298

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Jun 2021, 09:22 AMKasarov

Just going to leave this here...

I don't disagree with FRP, but this whole 227 stereotype needs to die.

Aside from FRP, having the revolver change into a PPSh at vet 3 akin to Sturm Officer's StG44 would be awesome since the Commissar literally has a PPSh ammo pouch on his model.


I think everyone can agree Hollywood films are very inaccurate, and a good chunk of them are mostly propaganda. Nor do I think that is a very good film, but Russians shooting other Russians? That happened. Russia suffered the biggest military losses in history during WW2. A lot of which had to do with their suicidal tactics
__

In regards to the PPSh idea, that doesn't sound like a bad idea. However then Artillery Field Officer or the new Luftwaffe Field Officer would likely be warranted an upgrade to the squad leader's weapon at Vet 3 as well. The reason (my guess) is that it is because Sturm Officer has to reach vet 5 to get the Stg44 as opposed to vet 3
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