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Commander Update Beta 2021 - General Feedback

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15 Jun 2021, 00:24 AM
#301
avatar of Heavy Sapper

Posts: 1045

Minor Qol issue. Smoke round ability on the cromwell, comet and on the crocodile are in different ui positions while they are basically identical functionally. Both used to be in the same spot at 34 but cromwell recently got changed to 31 as a part of the ui improvement patch. So can the croc's smoke got change to 31 and share same hot key ? I mean i can get used to with the new hot key on the cromwell already but when turn to croc or comet, my micro become quite messed up, especially in critical moments. I dont know what can be done to the comet since the whole bottom line is filled with ability, maybe cromwell's smoke can just back to 34 so micro can be constancy.
15 Jun 2021, 00:29 AM
#302
avatar of Lewka

Posts: 298

A hotkey change issue? Possible bug? It is being looked into
15 Jun 2021, 02:21 AM
#303
avatar of Kasarov
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 410 | Subs: 2

That's not even completely true. It was partially directed at officers, but who do you think was doing the retreating? The soldiers. So, using a commissar to halt a retreat all the way back to base does in fact fit with the spirit of Not One Step Back. Which, again, nobody had implied that the commissar would be shooting the troops, just that they would halt them from retreating further. And that, again, fits wholly within the verbage of the order.


Watch the video again. Mass disorderly retreats are the officer's responsibility, which is what 227 covers. Individual retreats is classified as desertion. If it's down to the individual, then it falls under desertion, which is court-martialing and potential execution, just like any other army. In CoH2, the officer (you) is ordering the retreat. It's not desertion or disorderly mass retreat.

No other faction requires any misunderstood historical precedents to justify an FRP. Why should the Soviets need one?

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Jun 2021, 00:20 AMLewka
I think everyone can agree Hollywood films are very inaccurate, and a good chunk of them are mostly propaganda. Nor do I think that is a very good film, but Russians shooting other Russians? That happened. Russia suffered the biggest military losses in history during WW2. A lot of which had to do with their suicidal tactics


Of course it happened. Russians shooting Russians did happen, as did Americans shooting Americans or Germans shooting Germans for desertion. If you watch the video, it highlights just how small a fraction the executions were in comparison to the total Soviet military. While I won't deny that the number sentenced was far higher than other nations, execution was far from a unique phenomenon. The higher numbers of executions owe in large part to the size of the army involved as the scale of ground combat on the Eastern front was far, far larger than the Western front.

You should educate yourself some more about these supposed suicidal tactics. That's just as much propaganda as the rest of it. If you don't like TIK, Military History Visualized has a decent video about all these silly Red Army myths that amateurs keep throwing around. The portion about Red Army's 'human wave tactics' immediately follows his own take on Order 227.

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Jun 2021, 00:20 AMLewka
The reason (my guess) is that it is because Sturm Officer has to reach vet 5 to get the Stg44 as opposed to vet 3


I'd argue that the StG is far more valuable a weapon than the PPSh. I get the rest of the squad has SVTs, but honestly I just want the PPSh for visual change and variety.
15 Jun 2021, 05:03 AM
#304
avatar of Lewka

Posts: 298

Hey, fair enough on the history facts. Also this video was very insightful! Thank you
_____________
Regarding the PPSh yeah that's true I would agree an STG is more valuable than a PPSh in comparison, also I believe this would be historically accurate for the Commissar Officer, yes?
15 Jun 2021, 10:52 AM
#305
avatar of Kasarov
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 410 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Jun 2021, 05:03 AMLewka
Hey, fair enough on the history facts. Also this video was very insightful! Thank you
_____________
Regarding the PPSh yeah that's true I would agree an STG is more valuable than a PPSh in comparison, also I believe this would be historically accurate for the Commissar Officer, yes?


No problem :)

Yes, as with many other nations, officers near the front were often issued submachine guns, though Soviet placed special emphasis on the SMG and used them much more extensively than any other nation in the war.
15 Jun 2021, 11:03 AM
#306
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 457

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Jun 2021, 02:21 AMKasarov


Watch the video again. Mass disorderly retreats are the officer's responsibility, which is what 227 covers. Individual retreats is classified as desertion. If it's down to the individual, then it falls under desertion, which is court-martialing and potential execution, just like any other army. In CoH2, the officer (you) is ordering the retreat. It's not desertion or disorderly mass retreat.


As someone who served in the US military and is currently employed in a paramilitary organization I feel like you do not understand the concept of the chain of command.

Those at the bottom ranks never directly interact with top brass. A US General is not going to issue an order to privates directly that is just not how any organized military functions. He will issue orders to Officer Personal, who will then apply whatever order to the enlisted general population.

Also using your logic, if my officer retreated from a battle do you think the privates are just going to sit there? They will obviously turn and retreat with the officer.

15 Jun 2021, 11:13 AM
#307
avatar of Kasarov
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 410 | Subs: 2



As someone who served in the US military and is currently employed in a paramilitary organization I feel like you do not understand the concept of the chain of command.

Those at the bottom ranks never directly interact with top brass. A US General is not going to issue an order to privates directly that is just not how any organized military functions. He will issue orders to Officer Personal, who will then apply whatever order to the enlisted general population.

Also using your logic, if my officer retreated from a battle do you think the privates are just going to sit there? They will obviously turn and retreat with the officer.



Not sure what you're disagreeing with, as I'm saying retreats are the officer's responsibility as the order is passed down from officer to officer. What the other guy is saying is that it's the soldiers that are doing the actual retreating. I'm arguing that CoH2 troops have to be ordered to retreat by the officers, aka the player; if it's just the soldiers at the individual level retreating without an involved officer, I'd say that's desertion, not a disorganized retreat.

In CoH2, you, the player, are the chain of officers in command directing an NCO (squad leader) to retreat, in which case it is an orderly retreat, not a disorganized rout which is what Order 227 specifically held incompetent officers accountable for promoting back when it was introduced.
15 Jun 2021, 11:45 AM
#308
avatar of Unit G17

Posts: 493

Since FRP was brought up, I gotta note that there has been tons of improvements for infantry preservation across all factions since I joined coh2 years ago:
(order of introduction might not be correct, also I may have missed a few additions)

Doctrinal:
+Soviets received Comissar for field healing
+Soviets received Airborne Rally point for reinforcement, healing and FRP!
+Ostheer 250 HT can reinfroce at vet1
+OKW opel blitz truck gained healing aura
+OKW has 223 scout car introduced with medikit drop
+British Glider HQ has medics now

Non-doc:
+Ostheer 251 HT gained the ability to heal troops inside
-(Ostheer had medikits removed on PGs)
+British medics available non-doc, and their buggy auto heal got replaced with heal aura
-(British medical upgrade got more expensive)
+Ostheer command and medic bunker ugrades can be combined
+Allied M5 (non-doc for soviets) and M3 (doctrinal) HTs can heal troops inside
+Ostheer medikits became cheaper
+OKW access to medics became cheaper


Now I wonder, are all pot holes gonna be filled eventually?
These are:
-No FRP for Ostheer at all
-Only one doctrinal FRP for soviets
-Soviets unable to heal howitzer crews
-Soviets unable to heal weapon teams on the field non-doc
-OKW unable to reinforce howitzer crews (unless put next to BG HQ)
-OKW limited to one forward reinforcement point non-doc

The latter two issues could be fixed imo by letting OKW players deploy multiple BG HQs (each has to be upgraded with medics individually).
15 Jun 2021, 12:40 PM
#309
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 212

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Jun 2021, 02:21 AMKasarov


Watch the video again. Mass disorderly retreats are the officer's responsibility, which is what 227 covers. Individual retreats is classified as desertion. If it's down to the individual, then it falls under desertion, which is court-martialing and potential execution, just like any other army. In CoH2, the officer (you) is ordering the retreat. It's not desertion or disorderly mass retreat.

No other faction requires any misunderstood historical precedents to justify an FRP. Why should the Soviets need one?


Because it fits with the wording of the order. I will yet again explain to you that in the context of the game, the commissar will act as a forward retreat point, but also preventing a full retreat back to base which completely fits within the idea of the order itself.I.E. giving up as little land as possible to the enemy.

Yet again, nobody had suggested any exaggerated depictions of the order like commissar squads shooting at retreating squads to halt them in their place, so I have half a mind to think that you just dislike it when people mention the phrase "Not One Step Back".

15 Jun 2021, 14:28 PM
#310
avatar of jagd wölfe

Posts: 1660

Since FRP was brought up, I gotta note that there has been tons of improvements for infantry preservation across all factions since I joined coh2 years ago:
(order of introduction might not be correct, also I may have missed a few additions)

Doctrinal:
+Soviets received Comissar for field healing
+Soviets received Airborne Rally point for reinforcement, healing and FRP!
+Ostheer 250 HT can reinfroce at vet1
+OKW opel blitz truck gained healing aura
+OKW has 223 scout car introduced with medikit drop
+British Glider HQ has medics now

Non-doc:
+Ostheer 251 HT gained the ability to heal troops inside
-(Ostheer had medikits removed on PGs)
+British medics available non-doc, and their buggy auto heal got replaced with heal aura
-(British medical upgrade got more expensive)
+Ostheer command and medic bunker ugrades can be combined
+Allied M5 (non-doc for soviets) and M3 (doctrinal) HTs can heal troops inside
+Ostheer medikits became cheaper
+OKW access to medics became cheaper


Now I wonder, are all pot holes gonna be filled eventually?
These are:
-No FRP for Ostheer at all
-Only one doctrinal FRP for soviets
-Soviets unable to heal howitzer crews
-Soviets unable to heal weapon teams on the field non-doc
-OKW unable to reinforce howitzer crews (unless put next to BG HQ)
-OKW limited to one forward reinforcement point non-doc

The latter two issues could be fixed imo by letting OKW players deploy multiple BG HQs (each has to be upgraded with medics individually).

It would mess up with tier selection since the battlegroup hq is a tech building
15 Jun 2021, 22:50 PM
#311
avatar of Unit G17

Posts: 493


It would mess up with tier selection since the battlegroup hq is a tech building


Tier selection?!? OKW can always build both the BG and the mechanized HQs, how else would they be able to call in KT?
15 Jun 2021, 23:08 PM
#312
avatar of Kasarov
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 410 | Subs: 2



Because it fits with the wording of the order. I will yet again explain to you that in the context of the game, the commissar will act as a forward retreat point, but also preventing a full retreat back to base which completely fits within the idea of the order itself.I.E. giving up as little land as possible to the enemy.

Yet again, nobody had suggested any exaggerated depictions of the order like commissar squads shooting at retreating squads to halt them in their place, so I have half a mind to think that you just dislike it when people mention the phrase "Not One Step Back".


I do dislike it. I dislike it when people find excuses to use that as justification for something so basic as a rally point. Order 227 is something that people misunderstand all the time; sure, no shooting involved, but why give people the impression that the Soviet military relied on something like Order 227 in order to do something so basic as an forward rally point?

OKW, USF, UKF: FRP, because tactics
SOV: mUH oRDuR 227

Completely unnecessary. We can just agree to disagree at this point since we clearly aren't making any headway.
15 Jun 2021, 23:31 PM
#313
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 212

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Jun 2021, 23:08 PMKasarov


I do dislike it. I dislike it when people find excuses to use that as justification for something so basic as a rally point. Order 227 is something that people misunderstand all the time; sure, no shooting involved, but why give people the impression that the Soviet military relied on something like Order 227 in order to do something so basic as an forward rally point?

OKW, USF, UKF: FRP, because tactics
SOV: mUH oRDuR 227

Completely unnecessary. We can just agree to disagree at this point since we clearly aren't making any headway.


Because they're retreating. It's quite literally what button does. You press R and retreat.
16 Jun 2021, 00:05 AM
#314
avatar of Kasarov
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 410 | Subs: 2



Because they're retreating. It's quite literally what button does. You press R and retreat.


Not disorderly. You, the player/officer, are explicitly ordering them to retreat. If you can't see the difference between a disorganized rout and soldiers following retreat orders then there is no point to this argument.

OKW, USF, UKF can retreat orderly to an FRP.
Why does SOV have to be implied to retreat disorderly to an FRP?

In any case,
jump backJump back to quoted post15 Jun 2021, 23:08 PMKasarov
OKW, USF, UKF: FRP, because tactics
SOV: mUH oRDuR 227

Completely unnecessary. We can just agree to disagree at this point since we clearly aren't making any headway.

At this point we're just derailing the thread.
16 Jun 2021, 00:44 AM
#315
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 212

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Jun 2021, 00:05 AMKasarov


Not disorderly. You, the player/officer, are explicitly ordering them to retreat. If you can't see the difference between a disorganized rout and soldiers following retreat orders then there is no point to this argument.


Ok, how about this: soldiers retreat, yes? Let's say soldiers were told to hold a town, and that it was the officer's job to hold it. Now, if you give the order to retreat, and the soldiers still go past the officer all the way over to the next town, that is a failure of the Officer's to maintain order 227, right?

Now, that officer is a commissar. And in order to prevent troops from retreating all the way back to base, he shows the troops where the line is drawn and they may not retreat further.

It's really that simple.
16 Jun 2021, 01:46 AM
#316
avatar of Kasarov
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 410 | Subs: 2



Ok, how about this: soldiers retreat, yes? Let's say soldiers were told to hold a town, and that it was the officer's job to hold it. Now, if you give the order to retreat, and the soldiers still go past the officer all the way over to the next town, that is a failure of the Officer's to maintain order 227, right?

Now, that officer is a commissar. And in order to prevent troops from retreating all the way back to base, he shows the troops where the line is drawn and they may not retreat further.

It's really that simple.


It's not a failure of the commissar to maintain 227 because 227 doesn't apply to orderly retreats. You, a superior officer to both the soldiers AND the commissar, ordered the retreat and is in no way disorderly which is what 227 is intended to prevent. If it was anyone's failure, it would be you, the player and commanding officer, to be held accountable, but that is obviously out of the scope of the game.

Consider the alternative: Soviet troops are smart enough to rally around an officer without Order 227.

It's really that simple.

If there was a way to properly do justice to Order 227, it would be to ban blobbers who mass retreat upon seeing an MG :hansGASM: but obviously it's not in Relic's best interest.

End of discussion.
16 Jun 2021, 02:53 AM
#317
avatar of Operator09

Posts: 35

Here's a tip since OKW is a meme.

SOV blob guards + clowncar meta

BLOB like 4 Penal or Guards + 2 T70 Level 19 1v1 (Smurf)

Since SOV can down any light/medium armor early game + 2 T70 anti-infantry. Pathetic
16 Jun 2021, 09:39 AM
#318
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3238 | Subs: 1



Ok, how about this: soldiers retreat, yes? Let's say soldiers were told to hold a town, and that it was the officer's job to hold it. Now, if you give the order to retreat, and the soldiers still go past the officer all the way over to the next town, that is a failure of the Officer's to maintain order 227, right?

Now, that officer is a commissar. And in order to prevent troops from retreating all the way back to base, he shows the troops where the line is drawn and they may not retreat further.

It's really that simple.


Kasarov is right, order 227 has nothing to do in Coh2. If you want to play a game where this could (or have been) implemented you should look toward the game serie Close Combat where troop's moral was a factor to be taken account and low moral unit could unilateraly retreat without you being able to do anything about it. I've only been playing CC1 and CC2 (Dday and Operation Market Garden) back in the day but I think another iteration was taking place in the eastern front so this order has maybe be transcripted in the game.

Edit CC3 was setup in eastern front, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close_Combat_(series)
16 Jun 2021, 12:14 PM
#319
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 212

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Jun 2021, 01:46 AMKasarov


It's not a failure of the commissar to maintain 227 because 227 doesn't apply to orderly retreats. You, a superior officer to both the soldiers AND the commissar, ordered the retreat and is in no way disorderly which is what 227 is intended to prevent. If it was anyone's failure, it would be you, the player and commanding officer, to be held accountable, but that is obviously out of the scope of the game.

Consider the alternative: Soviet troops are smart enough to rally around an officer without Order 227.

It's really that simple.

If there was a way to properly do justice to Order 227, it would be to ban blobbers who mass retreat upon seeing an MG :hansGASM: but obviously it's not in Relic's best interest.

End of discussion.


You don't really seem to understand chain of command very well. Yes, you are superior to the comissar and the troops, but the troops report to the commissar. The soldiers do not answer directly to you, that is a construct of the video game. In real life, orders are disseminated from the top of the rank structure down to the bottom. The commanding general of an army is not going to tell a squad of infantrymen to retreat, that's the job of their squad leader.

You, as the commander, are effectively issuing an order to the commissar that he is not to allow a retreat past his position. Where he stands is the line drawn in the sand. It is his responsibility to make sure that his troops do not retreat past his position.

And yes, it is completely fine to give a commissar a forward retreat point with the idea that it is to represent order 227, because faction flavor has always been a thing.

Why do soviets have 6-7 man squads while OST has 4-5? Why do the americans use a literal ambulance to apparate soldiers out of thin air? Why do the British engineers build bofors with nothing but the rucks on their backs?

These things are gamey and not meant to be taken so seriously.

So to recap, orders are disseminated down from higher ranking officers to the lower, the commanding general does not give orders to soldiers, this is a construct of a video game. A forward retreat point for the comissar being explained as relating to Order 227 is fine because faction flavor has always been a thing. And I am hungry and I'm going to eat breakfast now. Good day.
16 Jun 2021, 13:13 PM
#320
avatar of Kasarov
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 410 | Subs: 2


You don't really seem to understand chain of command very well. Yes, you are superior to the comissar and the troops, but the troops report to the commissar.


Kek. The commissar in the Red Army structure is a political officer, not a military officer, and had little to no tactical training. The commissar is equivalent to a Military Police commissioned officer and is definitely not who soldiers report to in battle; his jurisdiction lies in the discipline of the troops, much like Military Police.

The soldiers do not answer directly to you, that is a construct of the video game. In real life, orders are disseminated from the top of the rank structure down to the bottom. The commanding general of an army is not going to tell a squad of infantrymen to retreat, that's the job of their squad leader.


I recognize this. I don't disagree with how orders are disseminated from top to bottom; I'm a military reenactor and I have a pretty decent understanding of how orders are passed down. I think there's a miscommunication here. How I have interpreted the gamification it is that you, the player, are the rank structure and you, the player, thus represent the various officers that pass the order along and the guy talking back/taking orders is the squad leader. And by representing the whole command chain itself, you interact with squad leaders which then act on your behalf, in which everything proceeds in an orderly faction.

faction flavor


Look, I think you're a fine guy and all, I just think that there comes a point where the use of justifications that is generally misunderstood by most people (because most people won't bother to factcheck) for something that's so tactically basic is not a good idea.

To each their own opinion, but using stereotypes to force faction flavor, in a game that has consistently made changes in favor of normalization, leaves a bad taste in my mouth and I still disagree with it.

I recognize some stereotypes already exist in the game, but I believe that's all the more reason to prevent the game from being more so. I was against the 7-man change also because of said stereotypes.

My primary point is this:

In my opinion, the Soviets had enough common sense to rally around an officer without the use of Order 227, and the inclusion of 227 in the justification of something so basic as an FRP implies that the Soviets did not have such common sense, which promotes negative stereotypes in one way or another and ultimately disrespects those who have died in the war and the few veterans alive today.
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