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russian armor

Remove counter-barrage.

9 Jan 2021, 20:15 PM
#1
avatar of Aarotron

Posts: 501

Counter barrage is one of the worst design decisions in the coh2. While ostheer mortars reduced range makes is reasonable for it, i want to focus on the lehf ability spesifically.

Why its bad:

1. It is immensively passive ability, that does all the work of players part (spotting aiming and actual fireing) for no effective trade off, as artillery piece is incredibly passive unit to use in the first place

2: Supposed bad side of counter barrage, that it gets cooldown if you want directly barrage, is effectively negated, as the barrage can have enough scatter that it can easily kill any units surrounding it. While argument of "just avoid your own artillery pieces area does not work as it has enough much scatter to hit large area around it and to just randomly hit things other than intended opposing artillery piece, and this can be made worse depending on the size of the map, with more cramped ones being particular problem.

Second part of this issue is more towards team games, as avoiding the unit counter-battery was targeting is made even more impossible, by not being ever sure what unit it is going to fire. It might fire at enemy ml 20, or calliope or pack howizers of his ally, or just target brits mortar pit. There is no surefire way to pinpoint what it is going to target before shells start landing.

Overall i think entire ability would be good to be just gotten rid off entirely, as it is very unnecessary, and artillery should be something that at the very least requires some input and sight of player where he fires, not to let it do that by itself.
9 Jan 2021, 20:21 PM
#2
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 4752

due to osts squishier squads i dont mind it in theory, as their micro might be needed to keep their troops alive, especially to the likes of ml-20 or priests. however the no drawback nature of it (aside from tying up the arty) lies the problem i think.

one could add a resource penalty when its active to add an impact to set and forget arty supremacy, although if you know the enemy has it on you can "bait" the barrage with something cheap like a mortar, then move and fire with your real arty. a lot of micro but it basicly makes the arty useless.
9 Jan 2021, 20:45 PM
#3
avatar of BetterDead ThanRed

Posts: 128

Axis has:
OST- mortar,pzwerfer, mortarHT(doc) 105lefh (doc)
OKW- IEG, stuka, 105lefh (doc)
7 artillery options

Allies has:
SOV- 81mortar,katyusha, 120mortar (doc), ML20 (doc), B4 (doc)
USF- mortar,pack howie, m8 scott, mortarHT (doc), priest (doc), calliope (doc)
UKF- mortar pit, mortar (doc),land matress (doc) sexton (doc), does base arty count?
15 (16) artillery options

in 4v4, allies has option to get twice as many different artillery to field.
105 lefh counter barrage is a sensible thing to keep to balance things out
9 Jan 2021, 20:54 PM
#4
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 1558 | Subs: 1

Axis has:
OST- mortar,pzwerfer, mortarHT(doc) 105lefh (doc)
OKW- IEG, stuka, 105lefh (doc)
7 artillery options

Allies has:
SOV- 81mortar,katyusha, 120mortar (doc), ML20 (doc), B4 (doc)
USF- mortar,pack howie, m8 scott, mortarHT (doc), priest (doc), calliope (doc)
UKF- mortar pit, mortar (doc),land matress (doc) sexton (doc), does base arty count?
15 (16) artillery options

in 4v4, allies has option to get twice as many different artillery to field.
105 lefh counter barrage is a sensible thing to keep to balance things out


Just counting units does not prove a point.
What matters how accessible the units are. It would be much better to count commanders and then also note how viable these are. UKF for example has almost no viable indirect, that is one of the reasons why the Royal arty commander is so popular especially in team games. USF has three slightly different types of attrition based mortars but no non-doc rocket arty. Unfortunately, only rocket arty secures kills so people pick Calliope commanders to make up for it.

But just counting their doc units and then saying "look, the text here looks similarly long to the list of Axis units" (slightly polemic) does not prove a point and is rather misleading.
9 Jan 2021, 20:55 PM
#5
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979


Allies has:
120mortar (doc),


meh

ML20 (doc),


trash


B4 (doc)

RNGfest


pack howie,


nerfed to oblivion


UKF- mortar pit,


not gonna live long in a 4v4


land matress (doc)


trash


does base arty count?


no... its used like a grenade at best


15 (16) artillery options


out of 15 arty pieces 6 of them are irrelevant/bad/got nerfed hard/unreliable... so you have 8 arty pieces distributed among 3 facs as opposed to 7 arty pieces distributed among 2 facs... youre objectively wrong mate...




also quantity of arty pieces doesnt mean shit... you can have a thousand arty options in 1 fac but if all of them are shit then it doesnt matter...
9 Jan 2021, 20:59 PM
#6
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 10458 | Subs: 1



Just counting units does not prove a point.

What matters how accessible the units are. It would be much better to count commanders and then also note how viable these are. UKF for example has almost no viable indirect, that is one of the reasons why the Royal arty commander is so popular especially in team games. USF has three slightly different types of attrition based mortars but no non-doc rocket arty. Unfortunately, only rocket arty secures kills so people pick Calliope commanders to make up for it.

But just counting their doc units and then saying "look, the text here looks similarly long to the list of Axis units" (slightly polemic) does not prove a point and is rather misleading.


True.

After reading so many time that Quad (and/or M36) needs to be OP AA because it the only AA Soviet (and/or the only TD USF ) get stock, I can't really say that I am surprised to see some else using a similar argument.
9 Jan 2021, 21:10 PM
#7
avatar of BetterDead ThanRed

Posts: 128

point i was trying to make, is that 105 lefh IS THE ONLY LONG RANGE OPTION TO AXIS, and it needs to be good, and its static, needs to be vet1 to get counter arty.

just highlighting all the options which are available to allies compared to axis
9 Jan 2021, 21:29 PM
#8
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 1558 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Jan 2021, 20:59 PMVipper


True.

After reading so many time that Quad (and/or M36) needs to be OP AA because it the only AA Soviet (and/or the only TD USF ) get stock, I can't really say that I am surprised to see some else using a similar argument.

The question of performance is different from what is discussed here. I assumed that he wanted to show that Allies have more arty options and are therefore stronger in that department, so Axis needed their counter barrage etc...

point i was trying to make, is that 105 lefh IS THE ONLY LONG RANGE OPTION TO AXIS, and it needs to be good, and its static, needs to be vet1 to get counter arty.

just highlighting all the options which are available to allies compared to axis


Alright, than I misunderstood the purpose of your post.

I still think that the ability is badly designed since it requires absolutely no input at best and starts shooting at calliopes at worst. It is hard though to give this unit a replacement utility ability that would fit.
9 Jan 2021, 23:26 PM
#9
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 4752

point i was trying to make, is that 105 lefh IS THE ONLY LONG RANGE OPTION TO AXIS, and it needs to be good, and its static, needs to be vet1 to get counter arty.

just highlighting all the options which are available to allies compared to axis

the issue isnt that it can counter enemy arty, its that it does it extremely well, with no effort. this was the same reason for the hate on UKF counter battery. at the VERY least if you had to designate a sector for the counter battery to target it would be more palpable (would still counter howitzers if you knew where they where) since other indirect could still be used. right now it doesnt matter if its a mortar, su76 barrage or howitzer, the Lefh will shoot at them all, and kill them if you dont (or cant) move with nothing more than a click.
10 Jan 2021, 00:02 AM
#10
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 430

A big problem with nerfing the LEFH is that it is easily killed by anyone with a recon + call-in artillery. It's a static piece with no brace and huge scatter in Fog of War. In many situations you won't even keep a vet I+ LEFH for long.

While several LEFHs can counter SPGs, the reverse is usually true instead. Eg: Hamburg several Priests/Sextons focus firing a CB LEFH (out of 2-3) and it's gone before the firing cycle's over.

I personally think the ability's fine taking the above into account.

EDIT: Speaking of fixed arty guns - the ML-20's a pretty poor arty piece overall, though I suppose the base dmg is higher(?) if I read the stats correctly.
10 Jan 2021, 01:29 AM
#11
avatar of Selvy289

Posts: 324

A big problem with nerfing the LEFH is that it is easily killed by anyone with a recon + call-in artillery. It's a static piece with no brace and huge scatter in Fog of War. In many situations you won't even keep a vet I+ LEFH for long.

While several LEFHs can counter SPGs, the reverse is usually true instead. Eg: Hamburg several Priests/Sextons focus firing a CB LEFH (out of 2-3) and it's gone before the firing cycle's over.

I personally think the ability's fine taking the above into account.

EDIT: Speaking of fixed arty guns - the ML-20's a pretty poor arty piece overall, though I suppose the base dmg is higher(?) if I read the stats correctly.


Re-edited.

Edit:










LEFHML20
Base dmg160200
AOE radius88
AOE distance (close,mid,far)2,4,62,4,6,
AOE dmg (close,mid,far)1,0.35,0.050.9,0.28,0.05
total aoe dmg160,56,8180,56,10
Angle scatter9.255
Fow angle/distance multiplier1.751.25
Number of shells108+1 with vet 1
Reload2.25-2.75sec3sec
Range250-vet 3 around 305250-vet 3 around 305


Lefh counter barrage is 200 dmg and dosnt change the aoe dmg (making aoe mid a whopping 70 dmg). Im going to make an assumption here but because the scatter dosnt get changed, this means counter barrage shots rain everywhere which is could be a problem for larger more dense team game maps. To be frank, its a absolute overkill of aoe dmg towards anything that's not a vehicle or motor pit.

looking into counter barrage again, the fow multiplier matches the ML20s.

The priest is almost the same as the ml20 (even dmg wise) except with lower range and a mid dmg multiplier of 0.28 making sure its mid aoe dmg stays at 56 but with 7 shots per salvo in total. It has a aoe radius of 7 and a range of 180, at vet 3 240.

The sexton is just weird. More deadly against infantry (160 dmg with a mid aeo dmg of 80 but only in a radius of 2.5 and with a far aoe dmg of 32 with a aoe distance of 6 also being its total aoe radius) but less range than the priest with 160 range and at vet 3 around 210. It has 8 shots per salvo.

Obviously the biggest advantage of the priest and sexton is not being stationary artillery.

Its giving me too much of a head ache to do all of them. This is considering OP is only taking about counter barrage on the LEFH. Hope this gives a better picture.
10 Jan 2021, 05:56 AM
#12
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 10458 | Subs: 1


the issue isnt that it can counter enemy arty, its that it does it extremely well, with no effort. this was the same reason for the hate on UKF counter battery. at the VERY least if you had to designate a sector for the counter battery to target it would be more palpable (would still counter howitzers if you knew where they where) since other indirect could still be used. right now it doesnt matter if its a mortar, su76 barrage or howitzer, the Lefh will shoot at them all, and kill them if you dont (or cant) move with nothing more than a click.

Lefh counter barrage and UKF counter barrage had little in common.

Lefh required a vet 1 CP 8 howitzer with cost and pop and fired with CD. UKF counter barrage was a toggle (from CP 4?) with not cost with the only down side that one could not produce unit from a certain building.

Generally speaking Lefh counter barrage is strong but very much needed. It work as a soft counter to Priest, Sexton and calliope that have little counters other than diving.

If one removed counter barrage one will probably have to change artillery design or run the risk of turning large mod game in allied arty festival
10 Jan 2021, 07:23 AM
#13
avatar of WAAAGH2000

Posts: 596

Maybe need some NERF,share CD with barrage,and after counter-barrage it will be deactivate need manually to use again
Better rework USF commander counter-barrage too,increase range to "infinite" ,remove time limit,need manually to use again too
10 Jan 2021, 07:40 AM
#14
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 1715 | Subs: 2



The ml20 hs a higher base damage but its mid aoe damage is the worse out of the lot by a long shot.

Edit:










LEFHML20
Base dmg160200
AOE radius88
AOE distance (close,mid,far)2,4,62,4,6,
AOE dmg (close,mid,far)1,0.35,0.051,0.15,0.05
total aoe dmg160,56,8200,30,10
Angle scatter9.255
Fow angle/distance multiplier1.751.25
Number of shells108+1 with vet 1
Reload2.25-2.75sec3sec
Range250-vet 3 around 305250-vet 3 around 305


Lefh counter barrage is 200 dmg and dosnt change the aoe dmg (making aoe mid a whopping 70 dmg). Im going to make an assumption here but because the scatter dosnt get changed, this means counter barrage shots rain everywhere which is could be a problem for larger more dense team game maps. To be frank, its a absolute overkill of aoe dmg towards anything that's not a vehicle or motor pit.

looking into counter barrage again, the fow multiplier matches the ML20s.

The priest is almost the same as the ml20 (even dmg wise) except with lower range and a mid dmg multiplier of 0.28 making sure its mid aoe dmg stays at 56 but with 7 shots per salvo in total. It has a aoe radius of 7 and a range of 180, at vet 3 240.

The sexton is just weird. More deadly against infantry (160 dmg with a mid aeo dmg of 80 but only in a radius of 2.5 and with a far aoe dmg of 32 with a aoe distance of 6 also being its total aoe radius) but less range than the priest with 160 range and at vet 3 around 210. It has 8 shots per salvo.

Obviously the biggest advantage of the priest and sexton is not being stationary artillery.

Its giving me too much of a head ache to do all of them. This is considering OP is only taking about counter barrage on the LEFH. Hope this gives a better picture.


Add here that the ML-20 also has a bug that prevents you from shooting after the shooting has reloading. This makes the ML-20 completely useless, I recently built the ML-20 and I wish I hadn't done it, very bad characteristics combined with a bug is a waste of resources.
10 Jan 2021, 07:43 AM
#15
avatar of Descolata

Posts: 175

leFH Counter Barrage is straight bullshit. Something you missed, is it DOES have reduced FoW scatter, 1.25 instead of 1.75. Also, it gets increased range, also it hits harder... seriously wtf. Check Panzergren's numbers in the Discord.

It also has statistically the highest damage down range, a truly MASSIVE 1 shot AoE, and the last patch cut the pop cost by 3, so these guns can be squeezed in to team builds more. It maintains the best downrange DPS WITHOUT Counter Battery, which is just WAAAAY off base damage wise.

The ML/20 reaches damage parity with the BASE leFH barrage at Vet 1. Vet 1 is not a bonus, its a PARITY.

My PERSONAL biggest issue is the ML/20 had its ability removed yet the leFH still has Counter Battery. ML/20s are just... more boring for no reason.

Counter Battery should just be removed. If you want to counter battery... JUST BARRAGE.
10 Jan 2021, 07:51 AM
#16
avatar of Selvy289

Posts: 324

Maybe need some NERF,share CD with barrage,and after counter-barrage it will be deactivate need manually to use again
Better rework USF commander counter-barrage too,increase range to "infinite" ,remove time limit,need manually to use again too


This and changing the LEFH counter barrage mid aoe to 0.28 so that it is the same as its regular barrage mid aoe. Probably good enough.
10 Jan 2021, 08:02 AM
#17
avatar of SupremeStefan

Posts: 1120

Noobs are happy that ability exist.
And only noobs will defend this ability.
MMX
10 Jan 2021, 08:09 AM
#18
avatar of MMX

Posts: 377 | Subs: 1



[...]



iirc both scatter and AoE damage of the leFH and ML-20 are almost identical (the mid AoE damage for the ML-20 should be 56 instead of 30?). so the "base" performance of the two arty pieces should be quite similar, except the higher near damage of the ML-20 (not really too important against infantry unless in heavy cover) and the extra shot fired.

counter barrage is a whole different beast though, as Descolata already pointed out. i'd say the higher base damage is justified as it gives the leFH a bit more power against self-propelled howitzers - one of the intended targets of a counter barrage. if it should also be that much more deadly against infantry is probably debatable, and a reduction of the AoE mid damage modifier might be a good call to bring it back in line with other on-maps.
this or the active resource penalty as suggested somewhere above might also do the trick.
10 Jan 2021, 08:44 AM
#19
avatar of Selvy289

Posts: 324

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Jan 2021, 08:09 AMMMX


iirc both scatter and AoE damage of the leFH and ML-20 are almost identical (the mid AoE damage for the ML-20 should be 56 instead of 30?). so the "base" performance of the two arty pieces should be quite similar, except the higher near damage of the ML-20 (not really too important against infantry unless in heavy cover) and the extra shot fired.


Thanks for pointing that out about the ml20. I just went for the ml20 barrage profile instead of the ml10 on its own, ill change that right away (It dosnt help that their are 10 weapon profiles).

counter barrage is a whole different beast though, as Descolata already pointed out. i'd say the higher base damage is justified as it gives the leFH a bit more power against self-propelled howitzers - one of the intended targets of a counter barrage. if it should also be that much more deadly against infantry is probably debatable, and a reduction of the AoE mid damage modifier might be a good call to bring it back in line with other on-maps.
this or the active resource penalty as suggested somewhere above might also do the trick.


Against hard targets, counter barrage damage is warranted. The nature of counter barrage against infantry and support weapons like mortars is different (I believe it even reacts to the zis barrage too), having 70 mid aoe dmg is ludicrous and overkill. If any modal gets hit, it only would take one round from afar to kill it.

Also where abouts does it say an increase in range for counter barrage?

MMX
10 Jan 2021, 09:05 AM
#20
avatar of MMX

Posts: 377 | Subs: 1



Thanks for pointing that out about the ml20. I just went for the ml20 barrage profile instead of the ml10 on its own, ill change that right away (It dosnt help that their are 10 weapon profiles).


oh yeah, tell me about it! i've lost count of how many times i've run into the same issue and ended up redoing a whole batch of calculations just because of that.


Against hard targets, counter barrage damage is warranted. The nature of counter barrage against infantry and support weapons like mortars is different (I believe it even reacts to the zis barrage too), having 70 mid aoe dmg is ludicrous and overkill. If any modal gets hit, it only would take one round from afar to kill it.

Also where abouts does it say an increase in range for counter barrage?


not sure about that one. from the editor it appears that both abilities have the same (i.e. 250) range.
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