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[Winter Balance Update] OKW Feedback

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24 Feb 2021, 16:41 PM
#501
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13025 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Feb 2021, 16:01 PMSpoof

Why remove passive sprint?

It a bonus that allows infatry to move too fast across the field with no player input.

It is a force multiplier especially in large maps, turning it into a timed ability will at least require the player some planning on when and how to use it.
24 Feb 2021, 16:48 PM
#502
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 866

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Feb 2021, 16:41 PMVipper

It a bonus that allows infatry to move too fast across the field with no player input.

It is a force multiplier especially in large maps, turning it into a timed ability will at least require the player some planning on when and how to use it.

It's at vet V for Obers and at vet III for Cpt/Lt. Of the latter two ppl will usually only have one lol.

Idk about you but an OKW player with Vet V Obers has well earned it. Cpt rushing in alone without his friendly inf squads is asking to get rolled by locally superior axis inf numbers.

24 Feb 2021, 16:51 PM
#503
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Feb 2021, 16:41 PMVipper

It a bonus that allows infatry to move too fast across the field with no player input.

It is a force multiplier especially in large maps, turning it into a timed ability will at least require the player some planning on when and how to use it.

And its bad on elite, late game or otherwise non spammable squads... why?
Because you haven't said why, only what it does, which everyone knows.
24 Feb 2021, 17:08 PM
#504
avatar of Spoof

Posts: 449


Idk about you but an OKW player with Vet V Obers has well earned it.

This exactly. Also, Obers are meant to be a strong force against infantry. In a game late enough to see Vet V Obers, there is bound to a be vehicle somewhere to force away the Obers.
24 Feb 2021, 17:34 PM
#505
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13025 | Subs: 1


It's at vet V for Obers and at vet III for Cpt/Lt. Of the latter two ppl will usually only have one lol.

Idk about you but an OKW player with Vet V Obers has well earned it. Cpt rushing in alone without his friendly inf squads is asking to get rolled by locally superior axis inf numbers.

Are we really going to count the Major in this?


Once it has been replaced with active one, one can bring Ober XP value closer to the current price since their XP value is much higher than the price would indicate.

Then you would more Vetted Obers but less powerful.

If you want to talk about USF officer pls post in the USF thread.
24 Feb 2021, 17:38 PM
#506
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Feb 2021, 17:34 PMVipper


Once it has been replaced with active one, one can bring Ober XP value closer to the current price since their XP value is much higher than the price would indicate.

Their performance justifies that.
Most units exp value is related to unit cost, but there are numerous exceptions from this rule, obers are one of them as their original price of 400mp was split between current mp price and weapon upgrade and we both are very well aware of this. There is no injustice or imbalance here, just a different allocation of resources. End value and therefore exp value is the same.
24 Feb 2021, 18:47 PM
#508
avatar of minhuh064

Posts: 57

so make Ober a doctrine unit then
24 Feb 2021, 20:12 PM
#510
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

i agree with vipper about the passive sprint. imo powerful abilities shouldnt be passive, or be a tonned down version of the active version and sprint is indeed powerful. i dont buy "they earned it" either. a vet 5 KT shopuldnt be zooming around like a brit release Cromwell just because it has a high EXP requirement.
granted i believe vet should be more focused at raising the skill ceiling of a unit, not the floor. so take that as you will.

active sprint would mean it could be used in combat, which would aid in positioning and maneuvering, where passive sprint just means more map control and less punishment from a retreat, it also screws up combined infantry pushes as some units will arrive before others. active, and free but with a cooldown adds more tactical depth and strategic flexibility.
24 Feb 2021, 20:28 PM
#511
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 866

active sprint would mean it could be used in combat, which would aid in positioning and maneuvering, where passive sprint just means more map control and less punishment from a retreat, it also screws up combined infantry pushes as some units will arrive before others. active, and free but with a cooldown adds more tactical depth and strategic flexibility.

You really really don't want active sprint Obers. Between bundle and IR StG 44s and being almost impossible to close in on, it's a bad combo.

In any case, this whole discussion is moot imho. Ober combat performance is fine I think, just their timing was off (and getting buffed next patch). It's a 4 man squad facing artillery and light/med vehicles.
24 Feb 2021, 20:34 PM
#512
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13025 | Subs: 1


You really really don't want active sprint Obers. Between bundle and IR StG 44s and being almost impossible to close in on, it's a bad combo.

In any case, this whole discussion is moot imho. Ober combat performance is fine I think, just their timing was off (and getting buffed next patch). It's a 4 man squad facing artillery and light/med vehicles.

It can be free and stop once obers (or other units) enter combat.
24 Feb 2021, 20:38 PM
#513
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 866

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Feb 2021, 20:34 PMVipper

It can be free and stop once obers (or other units) enter combat.

So...basically passive sprint minus a couple of seconds from the BG they parked 1/3 of the map from HQ? Looking at you Nordwind top!

Or passive sprint minus zero seconds for small maps lol :S
24 Feb 2021, 23:55 PM
#514
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3327 | Subs: 1


You really really don't want active sprint Obers. Between bundle and IR StG 44s and being almost impossible to close in on, it's a bad combo.

Yeah Id rather they be able to sprint across the map than be able to sprint during combat. It's useful without being too strong
MMX
25 Feb 2021, 06:12 AM
#515
avatar of MMX

Posts: 994 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Feb 2021, 15:22 PMbrosras


I couldn't test it on your mode, as the missiles didn't appear to be fully displayed.

about the last rocket, I was wrong, it has a good spread, but here is the first one.



yeah something seems to have broken the mod, it's not working anymore for me either since i published it. sorry about that.

anyway, while i'm sure that multiple rockets fired into the first scatter box scatter randomly as they should, your video seems to indicate the very first rocket fired may behave somewhat oddly. honestly i still think it does behave as it should and you've just been incredibly unlucky (or lucky?) in your tests.

that being said, i'd also not be too surprised if there is indeed some weird glitch in how the scatter of the first shell in a creeping barrage is calculated, as that would not be the only instance where the description in the editor does not really match the actual in-game implementation (for example the real length of the scatter box is 48 m instead of the 40 m defined in the editor).

to either debunk or confirm this once and for all, the easiest would probably be to mod the width of the scatter box (currently 8 m) to be very large (maybe 10x of that), so it is easier to discern visually if the rocket always hits the center or scatters normally.
i'll give this a try later...
25 Feb 2021, 11:21 AM
#516
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279


You really really don't want active sprint Obers. Between bundle and IR StG 44s and being almost impossible to close in on, it's a bad combo.

In any case, this whole discussion is moot imho. Ober combat performance is fine I think, just their timing was off (and getting buffed next patch). It's a 4 man squad facing artillery and light/med vehicles.

There are commanders that give pgrens sprint so it would more or less be the same, but a lot later and free.
25 Feb 2021, 14:14 PM
#517
avatar of brosras

Posts: 224 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Feb 2021, 06:12 AMMMX


yeah something seems to have broken the mod, it's not working anymore for me either since i published it. sorry about that.

anyway, while i'm sure that multiple rockets fired into the first scatter box scatter randomly as they should, your video seems to indicate the very first rocket fired may behave somewhat oddly. honestly i still think it does behave as it should and you've just been incredibly unlucky (or lucky?) in your tests.

that being said, i'd also not be too surprised if there is indeed some weird glitch in how the scatter of the first shell in a creeping barrage is calculated, as that would not be the only instance where the description in the editor does not really match the actual in-game implementation (for example the real length of the scatter box is 48 m instead of the 40 m defined in the editor).

to either debunk or confirm this once and for all, the easiest would probably be to mod the width of the scatter box (currently 8 m) to be very large (maybe 10x of that), so it is easier to discern visually if the rocket always hits the center or scatters normally.
i'll give this a try later...


This is stability, there is no luck here
MMX
25 Feb 2021, 14:17 PM
#518
avatar of MMX

Posts: 994 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Feb 2021, 15:22 PMbrosras

[...]


Ok, I've just made a little mod as described earlier that increases the dimensions of the Stuka's scatter box from 48x8 to 48x36 m. And after testing a couple of times I've gotta admit I was wrong; you're completely correct in that the first rocket indeed always hits in the same spot (see pic below)!



Now that is both unexpected and rather perplexing, and I don't know if there is even a way to fix it. And if the Stuka is affected without any reasonable explanation, it's pretty safe to assume that this also extends to other creeping barrages as well. Gotta investigate.

For anyone who wants to test this by themselves, here is the link to the mod:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2407365410
25 Feb 2021, 14:17 PM
#519
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 866


There are commanders that give pgrens sprint so it would more or less be the same, but a lot later and free.

Are these even commanders even used? o.O
25 Feb 2021, 15:10 PM
#520
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279


Are these even commanders even used? o.O

Aye. They also give ambush camo. But at any rate, there's an okw commander that very cheaply allows obers to move faster while still shooting and being invisible on the mini map so I don't think that sprint would really be an issue on obers. As I said previously I much prefer abilities to increase the skill ceiling than just make things easier (imo this is the great failing of okw vet. It should have been regular 3 levels of vet with 2 new abilities that require the player to make the units better instead of just unit preservation)
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