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[Winter Balance Update] OKW Feedback

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21 Feb 2021, 04:07 AM
#481
avatar of Spoof

Posts: 449

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Feb 2021, 06:21 AMbrosras


First, shells do not fall on the entire designated area, but only from the initial 3rd strip, and the last 3rd strip(at least, you can make the shells fly along the entire length of the designation areas), and secondly, the first and last projectile always hit, almost in one place(it may be worth making these shells as random as the rest of the MLRS)

P.S. I hope you understand what I wrote correctly :)

Adding scatter would make the barrage harder to dodge though. Seems like a double edged sword.
21 Feb 2021, 07:08 AM
#482
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279


Agreed, although it's probably because of how often things change. Even with that though some of the descriptions are still inexcusably bad

That's fair, but on the whole it's rough.
Combat blitz vs blitz vs step on it vs overdrive vs flanking speed vs emergency war speed for example, some are speed boosts, some also provide combat buffs, they are all different but none of that is communicated...
Ost hull down and kv-1 hull down have different effects and are applied differently
Aimed shot for the Puma does differnt things depending on the target mark target does different things depending on the faction and none of them actually tells you what they do....

It goes on but I don't need to explain it to you. Like I said, a polish patch would be fantastic and a hope for coh3 is not needing to go to a 3rd party site to know what stuff does
MMX
21 Feb 2021, 07:31 AM
#483
avatar of MMX

Posts: 999 | Subs: 1


That's fair, but on the whole it's rough.
Combat blitz vs blitz vs step on it vs overdrive vs flanking speed vs emergency war speed for example, some are speed boosts, some also provide combat buffs, they are all different but none of that is communicated...
Ost hull down and kv-1 hull down have different effects and are applied differently
Aimed shot for the Puma does differnt things depending on the target mark target does different things depending on the faction and none of them actually tells you what they do....

It goes on but I don't need to explain it to you. Like I said, a polish patch would be fantastic and a hope for coh3 is not needing to go to a 3rd party site to know what stuff does


fully agree! things like missing text strings and vague or outright wrong descriptions for units and abilities not only make the game feel pretty unpolished, but also steepen the learning curve for newer players much more than necessary. things would be a lot easier if the flavor text would display what exactly an ability or stripe of vet provides, instead of the generic 'increases the combat effectiveness of unit x' that you'd have to look up elswhere to get an idea what actually means (or worse, if it still applies). sadly, the amount of work required to update everything, together with the not too slim probability to fuck up something else entirely unrelated due to how the game is coded means it is highly unlikely such a polish patch is ever going to happen... but i'd happily be proven wrong on that of course
21 Feb 2021, 09:49 AM
#484
avatar of brosras

Posts: 224 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Feb 2021, 04:07 AMSpoof

Adding scatter would make the barrage harder to dodge though. Seems like a double edged sword.


it is better to do this at random than when the projectile hits exactly where the shot was indicated. Since this makes calculations very vulnerable, for example, you provoke the calculation to decompose and at the same time make a precise salvo, and in most cases it is wiped. Also, there are calculations that take a long time to collect, for example, 120 mortar. Almost 100% of the time, he won't be able to dodge

It is better to be a random, as well as with other units. (this also applies to brummbar)
MMX
21 Feb 2021, 10:14 AM
#485
avatar of MMX

Posts: 999 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Feb 2021, 09:49 AMbrosras


it is better to do this at random than when the projectile hits exactly where the shot was indicated. Since this makes calculations very vulnerable, for example, you provoke the calculation to decompose and at the same time make a precise salvo, and in most cases it is wiped. Also, there are calculations that take a long time to collect, for example, 120 mortar. Almost 100% of the time, he won't be able to dodge

It is better to be a random, as well as with other units. (this also applies to brummbar)


not quite sure if i understand correctly what you are trying to say, but from what i know (and tested previously) scatter works as intended for the stuka's creeping barrage, and every rocket hits in a randomized location. the only difference to, say, a mortar is that the stuka's scatter area is not dependent on distance and thus is always the same. this is also universal for almost all creeping barrage type abilities in the game, with the only exception (at least until after the balance patch hits) being the katyusha.
MMX
21 Feb 2021, 10:16 AM
#486
avatar of MMX

Posts: 999 | Subs: 1

edit: double post
21 Feb 2021, 10:20 AM
#487
avatar of brosras

Posts: 224 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Feb 2021, 10:16 AMMMX
edit: double post


the very first projectile, always lying between the 3rd and 4th bands, the rest of the shells are random
MMX
21 Feb 2021, 10:45 AM
#488
avatar of MMX

Posts: 999 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Feb 2021, 10:20 AMbrosras


the very first projectile, always lying between the 3rd and 4th bands, the rest of the shells are random


what appears to be random is actually following a pattern that ensures every rocket hits in a designated area along the drawn in-game indicator

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Sep 2020, 10:47 AMMMX


Not sure if people were even criticizing the idea to change the target reticule to "circles", but I'll address this one quickly because it indeed doesn't make sense and would actually make things worse (the current in-game targeting indicator may not be perfect, but it is pretty accurate nonetheless).

I guess a lot of frustration comes from the fact that people don't know how scatter works for the Walking Stuka, or in other words, where to expect the rockets to land.

To make it short: each rocket has a 8 x 8 m square where it can land in, regardless of distance or orientation (due to the absence of range-dependent scatter), with all 6 squares forming a 48 x 8 m rectangle (see graph below for clarity).



The 'center point' of this rectangle (or the pivot the indicator rotates around) lies in the middle of the 3rd square, so the last rocket will actually impact a bit further from the center point than the first. Apart from this, each rocket will always land in its respective square, not anywhere else, meaning there are no gaps or anything such where rockets could never impact.
The actual point of impact in each square is of course totally random, so two projectiles can, at best, land right next to each other or, at worst, up to ~9 m apart - this is where the perceived gaps in the impact distribution arises from.

Now, as a TLDR, what does this all mean?

  • The rectangular indicator is already a pretty good representation of the rocket impact pattern, and the only way to improve it would be to give it the actual dimensions of the in-game scatter box (48 x 8 m).

  • There's no real secret to placing the barrage, apart from knowing the dimension of the scatter box and lining up the ability accordingly (including all the guesswork of where the target will have moved to by the time the rockets arrive, of course).

  • There is, however, the possibility to either maximize the damage output or reduce the chance of dealing no damage at all to a given target, depending how the reticule is placed:

    To maximize damage output, the target should be placed right in between two adjacent squares. This way there is the (rather small) chance of two rockets impacting right next to the target, but the odds to miss completely are also highest.

    On the other hand, if the target sits right in the center of any square, chances to completely miss are rather small, leading to more consistent damage output on average.


21 Feb 2021, 11:20 AM
#489
avatar of brosras

Posts: 224 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Feb 2021, 10:45 AMMMX


what appears to be random is actually following a pattern that ensures every rocket hits in a designated area along the drawn in-game indicator





black, where the projectiles do not fall at all, green, where the first and last fall, in the current patch, this is how it works
21 Feb 2021, 11:24 AM
#490
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1392

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Feb 2021, 11:20 AMbrosras




black, where the projectiles do not fall at all, green, where the first and last fall, in the current patch, this is how it works


To be fair, this is a problem of the indicator and can be changed easy. Indicators arn't generated by weapon-stats, they are created by an independently overlay.

Edit: Same for Stumtiger, the indicator doesn't fit shell's
trajectory (rocket ^^) That could be fixed by overshooting the indicator... I don't know why they don't fix it like that.
21 Feb 2021, 11:29 AM
#491
avatar of brosras

Posts: 224 | Subs: 1



To be fair, this is a problem of the indicator and can be changed easy. Indicators arn't generated by weapon-stats, they are created by an independently overlay.

Edit: Same for Stumtiger, the indicator doesn't fit shell's
trajectory (rocket ^^) That could be fixed by overshooting the indicator... I don't know why they don't fix it like that.


projectiles that fly to the center sometimes fall next to each other (randomly), but the first and last always fall at these points(if there is a spread, then it is not visible)

and also, I tried firing in the patch, and the projectile fell into the area painted over at the end(if fired at close range )
MMX
21 Feb 2021, 13:25 PM
#492
avatar of MMX

Posts: 999 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Feb 2021, 11:29 AMbrosras


projectiles that fly to the center sometimes fall next to each other (randomly), but the first and last always fall at these points(if there is a spread, then it is not visible)

and also, I tried firing in the patch, and the projectile fell into the area painted over at the end(if fired at close range )


then it looks like it is indeed working as intended.

from what i tested in the live version a while ago, the indicator and the scatter box should align roughly like this:



so every rocket falls into a separate square rougly 3 chevrons wide and as you showed already in your image, no rocket will land in the area around the first 3 chevrons.

i guess the indicator could be shortened at the beginning to better match the scatter pattern, but i think it is already quite accurate otherwise?
21 Feb 2021, 14:40 PM
#493
avatar of brosras

Posts: 224 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Feb 2021, 13:25 PMMMX


then it looks like it is indeed working as intended.

from what i tested in the live version a while ago, the indicator and the scatter box should align roughly like this:



so every rocket falls into a separate square rougly 3 chevrons wide and as you showed already in your image, no rocket will land in the area around the first 3 chevrons.

i guess the indicator could be shortened at the beginning to better match the scatter pattern, but i think it is already quite accurate otherwise?


That's about how I see it




21 Feb 2021, 20:22 PM
#494
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3386 | Subs: 1


It goes on but I don't need to explain it to you. Like I said, a polish patch would be fantastic and a hope for coh3 is not needing to go to a 3rd party site to know what stuff does

The veterancy descriptions are the worst offenders. I forgot which squads have it in their vet descriptions but some of them say that the squad gains "improved weapon control when under fire". That's not even a stat, and it's super misleading to newer players
MMX
22 Feb 2021, 03:57 AM
#495
avatar of MMX

Posts: 999 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Feb 2021, 14:40 PMbrosras


That's about how I see it






that's interesting, thanks for the video. still, when i tested it the first and last shot did land in a randomized spot in their respective scatter box, just as any of the other rockets, as opposed to being almost pin-point accurate like in your example. now this could just be an artifact of low sample size, but given your in-game experience i assume you've seen more actual live stuka barrages than i ever will. so maybe this is some strange behavior that just doesn't occur in my test setup (stuka spawned via cheatcommands mod and using the test range map). guess i'll test it again more thoroughly and see if there's really something odd going on.
MMX
22 Feb 2021, 14:25 PM
#496
avatar of MMX

Posts: 999 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Feb 2021, 14:40 PMbrosras


That's about how I see it





Ok went back into the editor and made a small mod to test the creeping barrage scatter again. And I'm quite confident to say that it does work as intended, i.e. first and last rockets scatter in the same way as all the other rockets in the middle do.

You can test it out yourself if you're so inclined via this small mod:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2404458576

All it does is increase the number of rockets fired into the first and last box (the ones with the X in your pic) to 100 and remove the explosion/crater effects in order to make it easier to see where exactly the rockets impact.
22 Feb 2021, 14:33 PM
#497
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13290 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Feb 2021, 14:25 PMMMX


Ok went back into the editor and made a small mod to test the creeping barrage scatter again. And I'm quite confident to say that it does work as intended, i.e. first and last rockets scatter in the same way as all the other rockets in the middle do.

You can test it out yourself if you're so inclined via this small mod:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2404458576

All it does is increase the number of rockets fired into the first and last box (the ones with the X in your pic) to 100 and remove the explosion/crater effects in order to make it easier to see where exactly the rockets impact.

Nice work
22 Feb 2021, 15:22 PM
#498
avatar of brosras

Posts: 224 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Feb 2021, 14:25 PMMMX


Ok went back into the editor and made a small mod to test the creeping barrage scatter again. And I'm quite confident to say that it does work as intended, i.e. first and last rockets scatter in the same way as all the other rockets in the middle do.

You can test it out yourself if you're so inclined via this small mod:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2404458576

All it does is increase the number of rockets fired into the first and last box (the ones with the X in your pic) to 100 and remove the explosion/crater effects in order to make it easier to see where exactly the rockets impact.


I couldn't test it on your mode, as the missiles didn't appear to be fully displayed.

about the last rocket, I was wrong, it has a good spread, but here is the first one.

24 Feb 2021, 12:45 PM
#499
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13290 | Subs: 1

Decrease the CD on vet 4 ability suppressive fire which is very long

Replace the passive sprint and an active timed one (that goes all infatry)
24 Feb 2021, 16:01 PM
#500
avatar of Spoof

Posts: 449

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Feb 2021, 12:45 PMVipper
Decrease the CD on vet 4 ability suppressive fire which is very long

Replace the passive sprint and an active timed one (that goes all infatry)

Why remove passive sprint?
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