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[Winter Balance Update] OST Feedback

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28 Nov 2020, 21:34 PM
#81
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8



Sorry, but have you ever played Axis? I mean, have you ever heard of Mills Bomb? Or Gammon Bomb? Do you know Commandos or 6 men Shocktroops? Or maybe you have played USF, then you should know 6 men Airborne Rangers with Thompson and cooked 1 second grenade. I dont know if I should laugh or cry about you post, but it's definitely not serious, just a bad joke....

Have you noticed how none of what you've mentioned is early game and stock?
28 Nov 2020, 21:37 PM
#82
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Nov 2020, 21:34 PMKatitof

Have you noticed how none of what you've mentioned is early game and stock?

Light gammon bomb is early game and stock for UKF for eight months now.
28 Nov 2020, 21:39 PM
#83
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1392

Give PnzGrens normal grenade, and we are all fine...

As gimmic we can give them bundle with Schreck-upgrade and give bundle a soft vehicle-freeze effect.
28 Nov 2020, 21:40 PM
#84
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Nov 2020, 21:37 PMVipper

Light gammon bomb is early game and stock for UKF for eight months now.

Oh yeah, this mega meta squad that no one uses.
I completely forgot it exists, just like the rest of population.
28 Nov 2020, 21:52 PM
#85
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1614 | Subs: 3

LMG Grens suck at attacking entrenched positions where they'Il walk into mines and sandbags, but the faction has plenty of tools to deal with it.

So all I can think of for Grens is rewarding them for having taken up a good defensive position and helping them fend off assaults. Sandbags are out of question, but there are other ways to do it:

- Making the Ostheer bunker 50mp and moving 100mp to the upgrades. Grenadiers now have the option for a more fragile trench they have to pay for, but it can't be stolen.
- Giving their Kar98k's better accuracy against suppressed squads, from 50% to 75%, to promote combined arms play with the MG42 further.

They're Elchino's ideas, which I really like.
28 Nov 2020, 22:02 PM
#86
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

LMG Grens suck at attacking entrenched positions where they'Il walk into mines and sandbags, but the faction has plenty of tools to deal with it.

Like what?
If one invest in mortars one get destroyed by micro light vehicles

If one invest in AT you are over run

The problems ostheer have is that they can cap fast enough, they can not attack and that now break even or lose an attrition war using support weapons.


So all I can think of for Grens is rewarding them for having taken up a good defensive position and helping them fend off assaults. Sandbags are out of question, but there are other ways to do it:

- Making the Ostheer bunker 50mp and moving 100mp to the upgrades. Grenadiers now have the option for a more fragile trench they have to pay for, but it can't be stolen.
- Giving their Kar98k's better accuracy against suppressed squads, from 50% to 75%, to promote combined arms with the MG42.

They're Elchino's ideas, which I really like.

The change to bunker is good but I drought it will be enough.

The tools to counter bunker are allot and early

As long as early infatry like Penals can one shoot or tommies can bomb them or LT get free bazookas or conscripts have anti-garrison those bunker it will not make much of difference.
28 Nov 2020, 22:14 PM
#87
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1614 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Nov 2020, 22:02 PMVipper

Like what?


Early game:
Mortar, Sniper, Panzergrenadiers, FHT, 222.

Lategame:
All the AI tanks, but especially the Brummbar. New vet 1 on Panzerwerfer will also help.

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Nov 2020, 22:02 PMVipper

The tools to counter bunker are allot and early


The bunker would be a temporary measure to delay and distract.

Trading a 45 muni satchel for a 50mp bunker isn't too bad a deal if it means you can bleed him heavily on the approach, but ideally he can't close in because you have an MG42 covering it. He'd have to get a proper counter like an AT gun or light vehicle and find an opportunity to kill it.

It would take some time, but players would find a use for it. Right now bunkers are useless except for covering VPs in the lategame when both armies are popcapped.
28 Nov 2020, 22:33 PM
#88
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



Early game:
Mortar, Sniper, Panzergrenadiers, FHT, 222.

Mortars are generally UP and Ostheer do not have that great of an advantage any more. In addition if one build a hmg and a mortar he has lost map control.

Sniper are decent and good vs UKF until a M3 WC51 show up and again map since one has to spend mp on t1+sniper.

Panzer grenadier are good but with 340 manpower cost you can use to fight mid range of charge once and then back for heal or bleed to death.

FHT big investment especially the 90 mu with a small window

222 is good

But instead of theorizing I suggest that one actually tries to play aggressive without osttuppen/AssGre/5men gren and see what happens.

Lategame:
All the AI tanks, but especially the Brummbar. New vet 1 on Panzerwerfer will also help.

If Ostheer survive to late game then they have a fighting chance.


The bunker would be a temporary measure to delay and distract.

Trading a 45 muni satchel for a 50mp bunker isn't too bad a deal if it means you can bleed him heavily on the approach, but ideally he can't close in because you have an MG42 covering it. He'd have to get a proper counter like an AT gun or light vehicle and find an opportunity to kill it.

It would take some time, but players would find a use for it. Right now bunkers are useless except for covering VPs in the lategame when both armies are popcapped.

As I said the change is good but the impact probably low.

The game has become too fluid and fast and defensive play is hardly rewarding.
28 Nov 2020, 22:35 PM
#89
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1392

...


german bunkers need a hard buff to be usfull as cover.

I am for give it same stats a trench, but if upgraded it can't be used as garrison anymore and gets current stats back.
28 Nov 2020, 22:37 PM
#90
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1


Early game:
Mortar, Sniper


Sniper is objectively the single reason to get T1 without being overrun by USF\UKF, and even when T1 picked ppl still usually stick with Osttroopens or (in lesser extend) with Ass.grens, because both showing better and cost effetive synergy with MG42\Sniper then grens.

LMG grens are good up untill elites or allied upgrades hit the field, and they are strong with vet3, but at this point they are still infirior. Sure they dont suppose to be as usefull in late game, but point is, they start poor, have small oportunity window for the cost of slowing down your tech and spending muni, and later on they are again completly outscaled.

Hell you dont even need their snare that bad, because osts have them aswell, and even if they didnt, you might aswell spend this LMG muni (which you requared to get) on mines.

Panzergrenadiers, FHT, 222.

And this is why ppl in general skip T1.

28 Nov 2020, 23:03 PM
#91
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Nov 2020, 19:37 PMVonIvan
Also poor 4 man grens getting no love this patch.


From what I've seen the formation change has quite an impact on the early game. They don't drop models as fast which makes them retain their DPS better. G43s are meh but won't be touched for now and the LMG 42 upgrade is good imo. Osttruppen we can do further adjustments to, but I'd encourage people to try the new Grens more.
29 Nov 2020, 01:24 AM
#92
avatar of Farlion

Posts: 379 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Nov 2020, 21:18 PMVipper

The problem with Ostheer is that they are a defensive oriented faction and are terrible at attacking.

The changes making the pace of the game faster, the high lethality of allied infatry, the weaker mortars, the reduced shock value of PzIV and allied tech more accessible have amplified the problem.

That is why the have to use specific aggressive commanders like assault grenadiers, 5 men grenadiers/fast 250 or fast capping commander like ostruppen, in order to secure sector else they are simply strangled.


Bravo. This is actually very spot on.
29 Nov 2020, 02:00 AM
#93
avatar of KT610

Posts: 69



Meta units will be adjusted if necessary, but how would you buff LMG Grens:

early / mid / late game?
raw firepower / bleed / durability / scalability / utility?

The G43 upgrade won't be touched for now.


How about the LMG 42 gives grens a suppressive fire ability like what Obers get at vet 4

29 Nov 2020, 02:28 AM
#94
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Nov 2020, 02:00 AMKT610


How about the LMG 42 gives grens a suppressive fire ability like what Obers get at vet 4



Obers are a late game arriving unit, expensive and generally see 1 or at most 2 of them.

We removed suppression capabilities from main lines for a reason (that 1 patch Grenadiers had passive suppression), Rifles 1919 and RET volley fire was nerfed into the ground.
29 Nov 2020, 03:00 AM
#95
avatar of KT610

Posts: 69



Obers are a late game arriving unit, expensive and generally see 1 or at most 2 of them.

We removed suppression capabilities from main lines for a reason (that 1 patch Grenadiers had passive suppression), Rifles 1919 and RET volley fire was nerfed into the ground.


That's a good point. I think real problem for LMG42 Grens is the fact Sections and rifleman can be upgraded to easily out gun them, but if the weapon slots for Sections and riflemen were reduced to one then the LMG42 would become more viable.

29 Nov 2020, 03:50 AM
#96
avatar of Support Sapper

Posts: 1220 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Nov 2020, 03:00 AMKT610


That's a good point. I think real problem for LMG42 Grens is the fact Sections and rifleman can be upgraded to easily out gun them, but if the weapon slots for Sections and riflemen were reduced to one then the LMG42 would become more viable.



i dont know about rifle but a rework on section is very needed, indeed.
29 Nov 2020, 04:08 AM
#97
avatar of KT610

Posts: 69



i dont know about rifle but a rework on section is very needed, indeed.


Double bar Riflemen make Paras and rangers redundant which Hurts Airborne company, Heavy Calvary, and Urban Assault if these doctrines are going to make a came back riflemen gotta be toned down. To make up for the having only 1 weapon slot riflemen cost could be lowered to 270MP, and RE given access to real land mines.
29 Nov 2020, 04:22 AM
#98
avatar of Support Sapper

Posts: 1220 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Nov 2020, 04:08 AMKT610


Double bar Riflemen make Paras and rangers redundant which Hurts Airborne company, Heavy Calvary, and Urban Assault if these doctrines are going to make a came back riflemen gotta be toned down. To make up for the having only 1 weapon slot riflemen cost could be lowered to 270MP, and RE given access to real land mines.


i think at best delay the second BAR until major will be enough, limited to 1 BAR will basically scrap rifle's late game scaling.

Suggestion:

rifleman weapon slot from 2 to 1, major dispatch now unlock an upgrade for the second BAR for same price. Same can be consider for section with company CP unlock the second Bren upgrade.
29 Nov 2020, 04:52 AM
#99
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1793

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Nov 2020, 21:18 PMVipper

The problem with Ostheer is that they are a defensive oriented faction and are terrible at attacking.

The changes making the pace of the game faster, the high lethality of allied infatry, the weaker mortars, the reduced shock value of PzIV and allied tech more accessible have amplified the problem.

That is why the have to use specific aggressive commanders like assault grenadiers, 5 men grenadiers/fast 250 or fast capping commander like ostruppen, in order to secure sector else they are simply strangled.


spot on buddy this whole post.

the uptick in use of 5gren/ostp and lesser extend assgren, allows ost player choice to play h2h against allies. which momentarily knock allies players off. it is they that need to take a different strat approach. no need for kneejerk nerfs based on small % of 1v1 pro games.

thats why im saddened vsl got nerf. maybe the -23% RA is given at vet2-3 rather than outright remove. stock rifles get RA vet too.

thats why im favoring delaying vsl like what is done with ostp. an extra cp and more muni would allow allies room to vet up or push out their own inf doctrine.

meantime, ost players have a choice of defensive plays (lmg grens+mg42+pak+p4/brumbar before transitioning to tigers/elefants) or aggressive push (5grens/ost + pak + ostwind + panthers).

with the test change to grens and mg42 formation and pwafer vet1 blob control and panthers, i dont think grens needed extra buffs. to avoid power creep.

but keeps vsl ability as it is. allies just need to adept and experiment. vsl is not a new doc, ost players just had to experiment.
29 Nov 2020, 05:05 AM
#100
avatar of KT610

Posts: 69



i think at best delay the second BAR until major will be enough, limited to 1 BAR will basically scrap rifle's late game scaling.

Suggestion:

rifleman weapon slot from 2 to 1, major dispatch now unlock an upgrade for the second BAR for same price. Same can be consider for section with company CP unlock the second Bren upgrade.


That is an interesting Idea, but I still dislike idea investing 120 munitions in a single squad. How about when a riflemen is equipped the squad gains 2 bars with each doing damage of 7 instead 8 (new cost 70 or 80 munitions) they still out perform Volks STGs tone down a bit and make them less of a munition sink

Original BAR damage: 8 damage X 6 shots = 48 Damage
Original double BAR damage: 8 damage X 12 shots = 96 damage
Rework Bar damage: 7 damage X 12 shots = 84 Damage
Volks STG damage: 4 damage X 18 shots = 72 Damage

https://coh2.serealia.ca/#134 This is the site I used to look weapon DPS

We should probably move this discussion the USF thread before the mods get mad

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