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[Winter Balance Update] OST Feedback

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26 Nov 2020, 21:44 PM
#1
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 2724 | Subs: 8

Please use this thread for all Ostheer-specific feedback on the Winter Balance Preview

Scope
In regards to your feedback, please keep the following in mind:
The focus of this patch is: Core Armies, Meta Problems, And Quality of Life Improvements.

OST patch notes:


Here is the link to the steam Preview mod:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2299363388
27 Nov 2020, 00:08 AM
#2
avatar of Flying Dustbin

Posts: 252 | Subs: 1

I feel like the LefH counterbarrage needs a tweak.
In team games, it pretty much shuts down allied indirect fire once it gets vet, if not dealt with. AFAIK it even counter-barrages the Zis barrage which just seems silly.

If it doesn't get the support weapon on the first counter-barrage, it's highly likely to cause lots of collateral damage, since the scatter is large and the unit density in team games (where it's common for there to be multiple LefHs) is high. It's a lot of reward for little micro.


27 Nov 2020, 00:59 AM
#3
avatar of KT610

Posts: 52

one thing that would help shake up the Osttruppen and German infantry doctrine would be to buff the G43s upgrade this would bring 3 commanders back into the meta. (Elite Troops, Jaeger Infantry, and lighting war)

here's my suggestion:

G43s for Grenadiers
squad size increased from 4 to 5
squad gains 2 g43 rifles
upgrade cost increased from 45 to 60

G43s for Panzer Grenadiers
squad size increased from 4 to 5
squad gains 3 g43s rifles
upgrade cost increased from 60 to 80

G43s for Stormtroopers
squad size increased from 4 to 5
squad gains 3 g43s rifles
upgrade cost increased from 60 to 80
27 Nov 2020, 03:09 AM
#5
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 7740 | Subs: 2

-Not sure if the Osttruppen change is enough (it will still arrive at same time the MG42 ends up finish building). And while u float mp for the 2nd one, you are still ahead in squads (say compare it to USF at that point they have 2 Rifles + 1 RE) and at the 107s of the match (it takes 1-2s to pick commander) you only delayed by 7s more or less the 3rd Ostrruppen (while say the USF is still half way through their 3rd Rifle) for a total of 3 Ost + Pio + MG42.

The fuel cost change barely pushes the upgrade later, cause you don't have enough mp (with Ost build) to push it when u have 40f.


-For suggestions which don't go too much further from what is presented:
--Rollback faust requirement back into T1
--PG grenades + Pschreck requires T2. It might not change that much 1v1 but might for other modes (?).


PD: i still like my 0.75 accuracy against suppressed squad change on Kar98s and changes to bunker (putting the cost into the upgrade rather than the vanilla no upg one, which will give room to buff the reinforce one).
27 Nov 2020, 03:58 AM
#6
avatar of WAAAGH2000

Posts: 596

Reduce scharck drop rate too?
27 Nov 2020, 04:20 AM
#7
avatar of CODGUY

Posts: 838

No nerfs to Panzergrens despite their early arrival and overpreformance, no nerfs to panzerschreks.

No nerfs or changes to HMG42, despite it being the most powerful starting unit in the game by a wide margin.

No changes to early Panzer 4 rush even though it's a better tank than the equivalent of any of the allied factions.

So I guess we're still going with the ez mode crutch faction theme of Ostheer. Well, okay then.
27 Nov 2020, 05:11 AM
#8
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1513 | Subs: 3

-Not sure if the Osttruppen change is enough (it will still arrive at same time the MG42 ends up finish building). And while u float mp for the 2nd one, you are still ahead in squads (say compare it to USF at that point they have 2 Rifles + 1 RE) and at the 107s of the match (it takes 1-2s to pick commander) you only delayed by 7s more or less the 3rd Ostrruppen (while say the USF is still half way through their 3rd Rifle) for a total of 3 Ost + Pio + MG42.

The fuel cost change barely pushes the upgrade later, cause you don't have enough mp (with Ost build) to push it when u have 40f.

-For suggestions which don't go too much further from what is presented:
--Rollback faust requirement back into T1
--PG grenades + Pschreck requires T2. It might not change that much 1v1 but might for other modes (?).


Well, you have to be careful further nerfing the early game timing of Osttruppen, cause it's all they have (fyi the LMG buff is only 25% on their 50% slot weapon, so they end up with 62.5% accuracy).

With the longer recharge time, 1st Osttrupp will be 10 seconds later, 2nd will be 20 seconds later and 3rd will be also 10 seconds later. BP1 change also definitely has impact. you start with 20 fuel, so only need 20 more fuel to tech, now you need 30 more fuel and field slightly slower, which translates to about a 30 second later 222. You definitely have manpower to tech as soon as you have the fuel in live.

If Osttruppen builds still need a further nerf, it would be something small like shorter Faust range, Pgren vet 1 moved to vet 2, giving them the sandbag buildtime increase, moving them to HQ or something else.

PD: i still like my 0.75 accuracy against suppressed squad change on Kar98s and changes to bunker (putting the cost into the upgrade rather than the vanilla no upg one, which will give room to buff the reinforce one).


I do like that bunker idea, but better accuracy against suppressed squads might be a bit too much on top of the better formation. If anything, LMG Grens need something lategame (instead of the T4 passive), but will have to see how they do now they hopefully won't get actively avoided.
27 Nov 2020, 09:35 AM
#10
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3216 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Nov 2020, 00:59 AMKT610
one thing that would help shake up the Osttruppen and German infantry doctrine would be to buff the G43s upgrade this would bring 3 commanders back into the meta. (Elite Troops, Jaeger Infantry, and lighting war)

here's my suggestion:

G43s for Grenadiers
squad size increased from 4 to 5
squad gains 2 g43 rifles
upgrade cost increased from 45 to 60

G43s for Panzer Grenadiers
squad size increased from 4 to 5
squad gains 3 g43s rifles
upgrade cost increased from 60 to 80

G43s for Stormtroopers
squad size increased from 4 to 5
squad gains 3 g43s rifles
upgrade cost increased from 60 to 80


This has to be a joke...
27 Nov 2020, 10:08 AM
#11
avatar of VonManteuffel

Posts: 52

All in all solid changes! Good work.

My experience:

Sniper:

Whats the point of the Incendiary Shot? A very long aim time with high cost of 40 ammo for 1 kill and a ~3 second stun? I don't get it. Compared to Soviet flair and Bitish vehicle crit, this still sounds pretty worse.

Panzergrenadiers with Schrecks:

To put the guys with rockets in front of the squad feels very nice. But with 35 range they're still underpowered vs LVs. You always need a Pak gun anyway as Wehr or you will loose to LV rushs. And with low vehicle targetsize, Panzerschrecks tend to miss nearly always, especially at maxrange. Therefore Sander made the suggestion to reduce damage to 100 but increase accuracy. This would be a bit better, but bear in mind: PGs are very MP expensive, Schrecks cost a lot of ammo and the double schrecks cripple their AI. Because of this, I would reduce damge to 100 in order to decrease their threat vs vehicles and encounter schreck blobs. But on the other hand, increase accuracy AND the range to 40. PGs with schrecks would be still shredded by allied infantry due to their low AI.

Armored Car
This one hasn't been changed yet, but I would highly recommend to look at it. Its armor is way too thin vs small arms fire. Every allied infantry can damage it and you always need some pioneers behind it to quick repair. There is not even a need for AT guns, blobs can just shoot at it with BAR or Brens ect. Even the USF M20, which costs only 20 fuel, can be upgraded with armor skirts to withstand MG and rifle fire. This wouldn't be a big change but it would help Wehr to better stay at frontline and support the flanks vs blobs. In addition, rushing T2 is no longer possible cause of the fuel increase for the tech. Futhermore a slight build time increase would lower the power spike. Or, like the M20, make an upgrade for ammo in order to increase its armor. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to make an Ostheer Luchs. Its combat capabilities are fine. But at least same armor as Puma would be the least.
27 Nov 2020, 10:36 AM
#12
avatar of Fire and Terror

Posts: 279

My proposal would be the following. Currently grens are not so good at the moment.

Lmg grens. Vet2 gives acces to firering position. Needs lmg and vet2. Functions similar to guards ability sqad becomes immobile and after 2-3 sec it gets a dps buff. Cooldown until you can move again 10 sec.

That way grens could fullfill their defensive role better in the lategame. 10 sec cooldown will prevent it from being used while out of position or in blobs.


G43 grens cost to 60ammo. Vet1 gives a small received accuracy buff. If the abiliry becomes to potent then, nerf the moving acc of the g43
27 Nov 2020, 10:51 AM
#13
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 16562 | Subs: 8

My proposal would be the following. Currently grens are not so good at the moment.

Lmg grens. Vet2 gives acces to firering position. Needs lmg and vet2. Functions similar to guards ability sqad becomes immobile and after 2-3 sec it gets a dps buff. Cooldown until you can move again 10 sec.

That way grens could fullfill their defensive role better in the lategame. 10 sec cooldown will prevent it from being used while out of position or in blobs.


G43 grens cost to 60ammo. Vet1 gives a small received accuracy buff. If the abiliry becomes to potent then, nerf the moving acc of the g43

You don't see much changes to grens outside formation, because grens are fine despite general denial of this fact.

Its a cheapest mainline with cheapest upgrade and no additional side costs involved into unlocking their full utility.
They perform very much according to their price and are cost efficient within it.

The only problem they had left is formation causing one model to be alpha striked when they approach anything.

They never were nor ever will be fully self sufficient unit, so you people might already let go of that and play other factions if you want mainline spam.
27 Nov 2020, 11:15 AM
#14
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 383

jump backJump back to quoted post27 Nov 2020, 10:51 AMKatitof

Its a cheapest mainline with cheapest upgrade and no additional side costs involved into unlocking their full utility.
They perform very much according to their price and are cost efficient within it.

Cons cost you 240MP, Volks 260 = 20 MP difference, pose threat. Grens cost 240+100MP for T1, Rifles cost 280 (40MP difference), Tommies cost 270 (30MP difference), vannila grens pose 0 threat what so ever to them, aside from grenade.

Can we stop with this BS with cheapest mainline and cheapest upgrades.
When your LMG are essential invesment, when support units are essential investment, when using nades essential investment in most of the fighing scenarious, that doesnt make them cheapest mainline to maintain.

Only the fact that you need 500MP or 480MP to fight off one rifle already doesnt make them cheapest.
27 Nov 2020, 11:30 AM
#15
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 16562 | Subs: 8


Cons cost you 240MP, Volks 260 = 20 MP difference, pose threat. Grens cost 240+100MP for T1, Rifles cost 280 (40MP difference), Tommies cost 270 (30MP difference), vannila grens pose 0 threat what so ever to them, aside from grenade.

T1 is not side upgrade.
T1 does not cost 100mp.
Ost gets extra mp at start.
Volks walk over cons unless you meet them from round the corner so they don't need to close in while being shot.

Can we stop with this BS with cheapest mainline and cheapest upgrades.

Only when we stop pretending that 240mp60mun unit should be trading equally with 280mp120muni+side costs of weapon racks unlock and same for brits+dual weapons+bolster.

When your LMG are essential invesment, when support units are essential investment to make them work that doesnt make them cheapest mainline to maintain.

No, that makes you relay on combined arms, which is how ost and grens are balanced to work, if you don't use HMGs, snipers and reinforcement HTs, don't act surprised that grens don't feel right - they are not supposed to.

Only the fact that you need 500MP or 480MP to fight off one rifle already doesnt make them cheapest.

You can't take 1 P4 with 1 T34.
You can't take 1 rifle/tommy with 1 gren.
Its called balance.
Game is not about void 1 unit vs 1 unit uninterrupted shootouts.
This is basics of the game you do not seem to understand.
27 Nov 2020, 11:35 AM
#16
avatar of Alphrum

Posts: 737


Cons cost you 240MP, Volks 260 = 20 MP difference, pose threat. Grens cost 240+100MP for T1, Rifles cost 280 (40MP difference), Tommies cost 270 (30MP difference), vannila grens pose 0 threat what so ever to them, aside from grenade.

Can we stop with this BS with cheapest mainline and cheapest upgrades.
When your LMG are essential invesment, when support units are essential investment, when using nades essential investment in most of the fighing scenarious, that doesnt make them cheapest mainline to maintain.

Only the fact that you need 500MP or 480MP to fight off one rifle already doesnt make them cheapest.


what about reinforcement costs? u must take those into account also
27 Nov 2020, 11:39 AM
#18
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 383


jump backJump back to quoted post27 Nov 2020, 11:35 AMAlphrum


what about reinforcement costs? u must take those into account also


Considering odds they are facing and nature of grens, you can expect looses and droped models aswell, if you are not start engagement from green cover without moving. So passive bleed for grens is a normal thing, maybe formation will slightly make situation better.
27 Nov 2020, 12:28 PM
#19
avatar of Grim

Posts: 927

I feel like the LefH counterbarrage needs a tweak.
In team games, it pretty much shuts down allied indirect fire once it gets vet, if not dealt with. AFAIK it even counter-barrages the Zis barrage which just seems silly.

If it doesn't get the support weapon on the first counter-barrage, it's highly likely to cause lots of collateral damage, since the scatter is large and the unit density in team games (where it's common for there to be multiple LefHs) is high. It's a lot of reward for little micro.




Yeah this ability has been the bane of team games for too long.

I'd be sad to see it go from an axis perspective as it is nice being able to forget about a unit as soon as it reaches vet 1, then come back to it once its vet 3 if at all.
27 Nov 2020, 12:31 PM
#20
avatar of Zeuskl

Posts: 25

What is current drop rate of Pgren schrecks? If it has the normal drop rate, could it be reduced to 15% like BARs?
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