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[Winter Balance Update] OST Feedback

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10 Jan 2021, 06:29 AM
#641
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1


....
people avoid grnes because they can. in live you can make up the difference with ostroppen and fill in the punch with fast pgrens. there is no need for grens. you dont need their snare and you dont need their DPS. the mg42 zones well enough to make up for ostroppen lack of teeth and there is no place for grens in this meta.

im not smoke and mirroring anything, grens cost 240 all game and that all you will ever pay for them. the 80mp doesnt apply directly to them, one does not include the cost of hammer or anvil when balancing comet or churchill because theres more to the upgrades than JUST that single unit, as with ost t1.

i must say its Ludacris that you are attaching the tier cost to grens as if its anything more than a token to get access to 3 units and deny the con upgrades as cost inflating despite them doing nothing but unlock things for cons and cons alone.

Not really. They avoided even WC2019 when it harder to avoid them.

If you want to add tech cost one can not ignore the simple fact first conscripts comes at 240 manpower with no delay and first grenadier comes 240+80/10 and later while also locking pioneer in building T1.

Fact remain Ostheer have a slow start, if soviet have slower mid that is simply fine else they would simply snowball ostheer. There was a time when all conscript builds where viable and it turned out to be really ugly.
10 Jan 2021, 07:06 AM
#642
avatar of C3 TOOTH

Posts: 176

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Jan 2021, 06:29 AMVipper

Not really. They avoided even WC2019 when it harder to avoid them.

If you want to add tech cost one can not ignore the simple fact first conscripts comes at 240 manpower with no delay and first grenadier comes 240+80/10 and later while also locking pioneer in building T1.

Fact remain Ostheer have a slow start, if soviet have slower mid that is simply fine else they would simply snowball ostheer. There was a time when all conscript builds where viable and it turned out to be really ugly.


Ost vs Soviet, I find its alot better in early game. The old day, Cons buildtime was 20sec. While the first thing Pion have to do is building T1 because MG42 was in T1. 10sec build & 30sec MG. The first contact between Soviet & Ost was alway Engineer,Cons,Cons vs Pion,MG42

Sure they still have slow start compared to West factions
Pip
10 Jan 2021, 13:49 PM
#643
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1594


but costs do matter. thats the best metric we have for balance. if x build is competitive to a more expensive build and its not made up of hard counters then either one side is over performing to that cost or the other is underperforming. resources are time given value, and that value has to match up more or less.

long and short, in the case of cons if you build one con, the sidegrades may not be worth that investment, if you build none it certainly is not. as such the extra investment of the sidegrades IS tied to the cost of the unit.
this isnt inflating the cost of my favorite unit to make it look one way or another, this is simple math. if you only build a single con, and get molitovs, that single con has more invested in it than if there was 4 or 10. since it IS a global it gets more cost efficient the more units that use it, but it IS extra investment none the less. much like a gren with a 60mu lmg should perform better than a gren alone, or one with a 45mu upgrade for that matter. more investment should mean better performance. thats the basis of balance.


I think, similarly to attempting to compare units between factions, the impact of "Investment" into a singular unit should also not be directly compared to another faction's "investment" into the similar unit, but instead how it fits into the roster of the faction.
10 Jan 2021, 21:14 PM
#644
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Jan 2021, 06:29 AMVipper

Not really. They avoided even WC2019 when it harder to avoid them.

If you want to add tech cost one can not ignore the simple fact first conscripts comes at 240 manpower with no delay and first grenadier comes 240+80/10 and later while also locking pioneer in building T1.

Fact remain Ostheer have a slow start, if soviet have slower mid that is simply fine else they would simply snowball ostheer. There was a time when all conscript builds where viable and it turned out to be really ugly.


It does not compute.

Conscript: 135 over 36 games from 50 total. 3.75 Conscript avg per game and used on 72% of the games.

Grenadiers: 101 over 27 games from 40 total. 3.74 Grens avg per game and used on 67.5% of the games.

OH opening is slow only when you don't build the MG42 as first unit. There's a reason they start with more mp than usual.
10 Jan 2021, 22:04 PM
#645
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



It does not compute.

Conscript: 135 over 36 games from 50 total. 3.75 Conscript avg per game and used on 72% of the games.

Grenadiers: 101 over 27 games from 40 total. 3.74 Grens avg per game and used on 67.5% of the games.

OH opening is slow only when you don't build the MG42 as first unit. There's a reason they start with more mp than usual.

As I pointed it has to do with opening not the total units produced.

Only grenadier openings 0, HMG + 3 grenadier 16 openings....
10 Jan 2021, 22:27 PM
#646
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Jan 2021, 22:04 PMVipper

As I pointed it has to do with opening not the total units produced.

Only grenadier openings 0, HMG + 3 grenadier 16 openings....

So.... opening that is not optimal, never was and never is going to be, because faction doesn't operate like that is a not viable option at competitive level?

That's shocking news!
Said no one.

Grenspam never was and never will be viable strat.
I have no idea why do you cling to it like a flex tape to a crack.

Are you trying to prove some point by repeating how BO that never was meant to work and is stupid idea above rank 500 is not working?
10 Jan 2021, 22:32 PM
#647
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Jan 2021, 22:04 PMVipper

As I pointed it has to do with opening not the total units produced.

Only grenadier openings 0, HMG + 3 grenadier 16 openings....


And why would you try to open with anything else than MG42, doctrinal infantry or pio?

I think you only go gren first if you plan getting a sniper.
10 Jan 2021, 22:40 PM
#648
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



And why would you try to open with anything else than MG42, doctrinal infantry or pio?

I think you only go gren first if you plan getting a sniper.

And that is what I have pointed out. "Cheaper mainline infatry" arguments means nothing.
10 Jan 2021, 22:45 PM
#649
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Jan 2021, 22:40 PMVipper

And that is what I have pointed out. "Cheaper mainline infatry" arguments means nothing.


You didn't and you made an even worst point.
10 Jan 2021, 22:45 PM
#650
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1515

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Jan 2021, 22:40 PMVipper

And that is what I have pointed out. "Cheaper mainline infatry" arguments means nothing.


So "not opening with grens" = "not cheapest mainline infantry"?

Whether they are the cheapest is not a matter of opinion but of mathematics. But this post is so braindead, that it almost gave me an aneurysm. How does not opening with grens have to do with ANYTHING concerning how cheap they are?
11 Jan 2021, 07:04 AM
#651
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



You didn't and you made an even worst point.

In your opinion are grenadier the cheapest infatry or not?

If they are I am all ear for the arguments, if they are not we agree.
11 Jan 2021, 07:10 AM
#652
avatar of Clarity

Posts: 479

Honestly I think giving Grens sandbags would make them feel a lot better, obviously they should have the slower build time like the sandbags of other factions but it would make LMG Grens feel much better defensively in the engagements where they excel.
11 Jan 2021, 07:20 AM
#653
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Jan 2021, 07:04 AMVipper

In your opinion are grenadier the cheapest infatry or not?

If they are I am all ear for the arguments, if they are not we agree.

You've proven to be completely deaf to any arguments.

Nothing will convenience you at this point and nothing have, because you deflect and disregard every single valid argument all the time.
11 Jan 2021, 14:09 PM
#655
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1289

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Jan 2021, 07:10 AMClarity
Honestly I think giving Grens sandbags would make them feel a lot better, obviously they should have the slower build time like the sandbags of other factions but it would make LMG Grens feel much better defensively in the engagements where they excel.


I understand the logic, but it would leave soviets at a big disadvantidge vs them. This woyld mean soviets need early tools such as nades to have them be able to handle them, or the mg42 needs a hard nerf.
11 Jan 2021, 14:24 PM
#656
avatar of Kyle

Posts: 322

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Jan 2021, 07:10 AMClarity
Honestly I think giving Grens sandbags would make them feel a lot better, obviously they should have the slower build time like the sandbags of other factions but it would make LMG Grens feel much better defensively in the engagements where they excel.


I agree with you: They should replace Grenadier ability to build bunker with making sandbags (but also way slower building compare to Pio to stop spamming)

Grenadier are weak early game and they need sandbag, period.

11 Jan 2021, 14:33 PM
#657
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Jan 2021, 14:24 PMKyle


I agree with you: They should replace Grenadier ability to build bunker with making sandbags (but also way slower building compare to Pio to stop spamming)

Grenadier are weak early game and they need sandbag, period.


Ostruppen from t1 should have sandbag instead of bunkers.
11 Jan 2021, 17:30 PM
#658
avatar of Elaindil

Posts: 97

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Jan 2021, 14:33 PMVipper

Ostruppen from t1 should have sandbag instead of bunkers.

This sounds good.
11 Jan 2021, 18:32 PM
#659
avatar of EtherealDragon

Posts: 1890 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Jan 2021, 14:33 PMVipper

Ostruppen from t1 should have sandbag instead of bunkers.


The only ostruppen that don't get sandbags are the the mobile defense ones. Unless you are saying that Ostruppen should get sandbags from the get-go instead of CP1 or CP2, which I'm not sure is a good idea since they are trying to tone down sandbag spam. Might work if they are balanced like the conscript sandbags in 5.0 where they are built slower than stock Pioneer sandbags but end up at same speed as Pioneers at Vet 1 or something like that.
11 Jan 2021, 19:00 PM
#660
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



The only ostruppen that don't get sandbags are the the mobile defense ones. Unless you are saying that Ostruppen should get sandbags from the get-go instead of CP1 or CP2, which I'm not sure is a good idea since they are trying to tone down sandbag spam. Might work if they are balanced like the conscript sandbags in 5.0 where they are built slower than stock Pioneer sandbags but end up at same speed as Pioneers at Vet 1 or something like that.

It is my opinion that mainline infatry should not have sandbags.

On the other hand ff IS get them from start ostruppen should also get them from start.
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