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Why Soviets are OP

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24 Sep 2020, 12:05 PM
#141
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Sep 2020, 04:55 AMgbem


the fact that the soviets are rated low on the tournament/automatch means that youre wrong


You are wrong. Read the whole article carefully. All paragraphs related to automatch mechanics and how the tiers visible on the graphs are created and all other details including q&a section. You will see how wrong Your conclusion is.

Imo it shows nothing related to overall strength of any faction.

What, however, shows factions' strength are tourneys when most players win when playing as allies (and where they have to switch sides).
24 Sep 2020, 12:08 PM
#142
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979



You are wrong. Read the whole article carefully. All paragraphs related to automatch mechanics and how the tiers visible on the graphs are created and all other details including q&a section. You will see how wrong Your conclusion is.

Imo it shows nothing related to overall strength of any faction.

What, however, it does show is how factions' strength are tourneys when most players win when playing as alliesand where they have to switch sides.


ohh please stop trying to make excuses... general consensus of faction strength puts sov and OKW on the bottom and it takes a special amount of axis fanboyism to dispute that... winrates are clearly in favor of UKF/USF/OST and most top players agree that those 3 factions are strong while SOV and OKW are the weakest...

just buff OKW and SOV and be done with it...
24 Sep 2020, 12:15 PM
#143
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8



You are wrong. Read the whole article carefully. All paragraphs related to automatch mechanics and how the tiers visible on the graphs are created and all other details including q&a section. You will see how wrong Your conclusion is.

Imo it shows nothing related to overall strength of any faction.

What, however, shows factions' strength are tourneys when most players win when playing as allies (and where they have to switch sides).

Tourneys do not follow meta.
They are not indicative of anything else but individual players ingenuity, micro and awareness skill.

Also, the only, singular unit that was batshit insane during the last 2v2 tourney(no patch since it happened and game isn't balanced exclusively for 1v1 for years now, so its perfectly valid) was brummbar wrecking all
infantry based shit with impunity.
24 Sep 2020, 12:51 PM
#144
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 990 | Subs: 1

While sov and OKW can be considered the weakest. Reasons why they are couldnt be more different.

OKW is the weakest because of pop-cap, over-reliance on certain units, VERY punishing tech, unability to answer cetrain things properly.

Soviets are the weakest allied faction. At certain points of the game their powerspike is concentrated in 1 unit, and they in general weak in mid game, due to lack of upgrades, but in terms of bullshittery they are not even close to being OKW.

But they dont struggle even as close vs Ost\OKW, as OKW stuggles vs USF\UKF. This is speaking about 1v1, speaking about 2v2+, double OKW is much-much worst case scenario, then double Soviets.
24 Sep 2020, 13:06 PM
#145
avatar of VonIvan

Posts: 2477 | Subs: 21

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Sep 2020, 09:02 AMGiaA


I mean I could have made a thread about brits being op but that would just be preaching to the choir. I loathe brits as much as the next person. You actually think Soviets rely on tank destroyers? I mean get that you're not much of an ATGun guy but I feel like Su76 or Su85 play much less of a role than double zis in 1v1.

In 2v2 they have a bigger role. For 1v1 they also have a role most times to deal with KTs/Tigers/Pathers. (SU-85 90% of the time since SU-76 is much easier to deal with)
In terms of double ZiS they were noted in my original post as part of the 6 man support weapon issue.
24 Sep 2020, 13:08 PM
#146
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

Soviets are a joke, until you get to the lategame and they're finally a competent faction.

How someone can look at the Soviet early-mid game and think it's all good is absolutely beyond me.
24 Sep 2020, 13:16 PM
#147
avatar of CreativeName

Posts: 281

Soviets are a joke, until you get to the lategame and they're finally a competent faction.

How someone can look at the Soviet early-mid game and think it's all good is absolutely beyond me.


flamer blobbing, mine spam, dshkas, guards/shocks, t70, svt cons

Soviets have alot good stuff in the early-mid game
24 Sep 2020, 13:21 PM
#148
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979



flamer blobbing, mine spam, dshkas, guards/shocks, t70, svt cons

Soviets have alot good stuff in the early-mid game



all of those are doctrinal except flamers and mines... and even minespam wont save you tbh
24 Sep 2020, 13:25 PM
#149
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3



flamer blobbing, mine spam, dshkas, guards/shocks, t70, svt cons

Soviets have alot good stuff in the early-mid game


Flamer blobbing is true, mine spam is dependent on muni control and suffering early in map control can demolish mine spam, dshkas have the worst deathloop in the game by far and a very narrow arc, guards are good, shocks are map dependent, T70 is amazing but comes out 8-11mins depending on fuel income, SVT cons means no mines whatsoever cuz you have to keep dropping SVTs and a Dshka after your flamer but I agree it's a good upgrade despite the drawbacks.

Soviets have a lot of good stuff but the Ostheer powerspikes are much better and OKW can easily win if you play the straight up before the T70 shows up. It's always a guerilla war against both factions early until you can actually come out ahead.

Which is why I find the entire thread hilarious, Soviets are far from OP and quite nonexistent in the 1v1 meta due to their matchup vs Osttruppen.
24 Sep 2020, 13:36 PM
#150
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Sep 2020, 12:08 PMgbem


ohh please stop trying to make excuses... general consensus of faction strength puts sov and OKW on the bottom and it takes a special amount of axis fanboyism to dispute that...

wrong again. OKW is at the bottom because it is weak (too expensive stuff for ehat you get and too single purpose in general). Soviets are much better but are less often chosen as UKF is simply crazily OP, Sov look weak compared to that but are very strong.
jump backJump back to quoted post24 Sep 2020, 12:08 PMgbem

winrates are clearly in favor of UKF/USF/OST

which again does not matter much - once again - winrates do not explain if a given faction is weak or strong
jump backJump back to quoted post24 Sep 2020, 12:08 PMgbem

and most top players agree that those 3 factions are strong while SOV and OKW are the weakest...

And once again - Soviets are better than both axis armies imo (withe the exception of a well executed osttroppen strat where they are even). UKF is just cancer, especially when combined with some commanders but not only that while USF is just strong.
jump backJump back to quoted post24 Sep 2020, 12:08 PMgbem

just buff OKW and SOV and be done with it...


Absolutely wrong diagnosis and wrong medicine.

Correct medicine: Buff OKW but carefully, nerf UKF and think about some small tweaks to USF making them less oppressive (difficult to do). Nerf some of the Soviet advantages left from the early game stages (such as 6 men crews mentioned by Von, etc)
24 Sep 2020, 13:36 PM
#151
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979


SVT shocks


you mean SVT cons? yeah SVT cons are great... airborne is probably the only competitive soviet commander at the moment since it addresses the inept midgame issue by adding the DSHK and a decent weapon upgrade for conscripts... now if only conscripts had nondoc ppsh weapon upgrades and the maxim werent complete trash maybe the soviets would have a decent midgame...


though i still think cons PPSH needs to give 5x ppsh like volksgren mp-40 does...
24 Sep 2020, 13:39 PM
#152
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Sep 2020, 12:15 PMKatitof

Tourneys do not follow meta.
They are not indicative of anything else but individual players ingenuity, micro and awareness skill.

True but also they show how these players can put to use some of the factions' OPness. So far most games in tournes are won by allied players be it 1v1 or 2v2. It indicates the balance problem. Not that great a problem but a significant problem.
jump backJump back to quoted post24 Sep 2020, 12:15 PMKatitof

Also, the only, singular unit that was batshit insane during the last 2v2 tourney(no patch since it happened and game isn't balanced exclusively for 1v1 for years now, so its perfectly valid) was brummbar wrecking all
infantry based shit with impunity.

Simply not true. Brumbar just executed what you suggested at the beginning of the post. The game was probably already won andyway as in the hands of a similarly skilled players tourneys show that allies win by a decent marigin.
24 Sep 2020, 13:41 PM
#153
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979



Simply not true. Brumbar just executed what you suggested at the beginning of the post. The game was probably already won andyway as in the hands of a similarly skilled players tourneys show that allies win by a decent marigin.


why did you quote me??
24 Sep 2020, 13:49 PM
#154
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Sep 2020, 13:41 PMgbem


why did you quote me??

sorry :( a copy paste mistake - corrected just now
24 Sep 2020, 13:53 PM
#155
avatar of CreativeName

Posts: 281

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Sep 2020, 13:21 PMgbem



all of those are doctrinal except flamers and mines... and even minespam wont save you tbh


yes, alot of the strong soviet units/abilities are doctrinal... but how does that make the argument not valid in any way? Its exactly the same with every other faction, like ostruppen, 5man grens, wc51, valentine, commandos, pak howi drop etc. you need meta commanders to beat meta commanders



Flamer blobbing is true, mine spam is dependent on muni control and suffering early in map control can demolish mine spam, dshkas have the worst deathloop in the game by far and a very narrow arc, guards are good, shocks are map dependent, T70 is amazing but comes out 8-11mins depending on fuel income, SVT shocks means no mines whatsoever cuz you have to keep dropping SVTs and a Dshka after your flamer but I agree it's a good upgrade despite the drawbacks.

Soviets have a lot of good stuff but the Ostheer powerspikes are much better and OKW can easily win if you play the straight up before the T70 shows up. It's always a guerilla war against both factions early until you can actually come out ahead.

Which is why I find the entire thread hilarious, Soviets are far from OP and quite nonexistent in the 1v1 meta due to their matchup vs Osttruppen.


ye deathloop is an issue but the dshka is still very strong, the 50cla has a deathloop too and is considered op.
okw actually has a tough time vs soviets, the double flamer and only one available sweeper will lose you alot of fights.
ostruppen are simply OP, i dont think anyone would argue about that and specially soviets suffer against them, that doesnt make the soviet early-mid game weak.
24 Sep 2020, 14:11 PM
#156
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1739

Only speaking about 1v1 and 2v2:
Soviets have the strongest late game with very strong doctrines to fill the gap. the main problems are their pop cap, which is insanly efficient and the zis gun that can used as indirect when needed. Most other armies cant afford indirect in 1v1 as manpower and popcap are very tight.

Once the soviet army is set up with double zis, mines, t70, sandbags, 7man cons, mediums/heavy etc, it is very tough to almost impossible to break their line.
The problem is the synergy of their combined arms is simply stronger than any other army, so there isnt an obvious nerf that would fix this issue.


as a >1000 2v2 player, i totally agree and being saying so.

dont forget cheap su85 + easy vet + insane vet bonus + call in any heavy armor

For a start 7 men cons + sandbag was always a weird decision. Why is there plan to nerf Ost VSL before 7 man cons?

zis barrage range should reduce to 50.

ISU152 rear armor should reduce to 100.

reduce hang time of mortar sight flare
24 Sep 2020, 14:18 PM
#157
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Sep 2020, 11:51 AMgbem


not too good of a weapon upgrade... a 7th mosin nagant has 1/3rd the dps of a DP-28 and 1/5th the DPS of an LMG-42... sure it increases HP by a bit but the discrepancy is phenomenal...

It makes merge work significantly better which is an unquanifiable boon to the faction. Cons are not supposed to be damage dealers. They are support for the damage dealers.
24 Sep 2020, 14:19 PM
#158
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979


It makes merge work significantly better which is an unquanifiable boon to the faction. Cons are not supposed to be damage dealers. They are support for the damage dealers.


whats the damage dealer for the soviet midgame? is it supposed to be the maxim?
24 Sep 2020, 14:21 PM
#159
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Sep 2020, 14:19 PMgbem


whats the damage dealer for the soviet midgame? is it supposed to be the maxim?

I could be with a bit of tuning.
Make the maxim suppression mode a deployment that takes a second or 2 beyond normal set up. Now it's a defensive mg. Make its normal mode a dps mode. Now it's an assault mg/damage dealer unit.
For T1 there's penals
24 Sep 2020, 14:24 PM
#160
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979



yes, alot of the strong soviet units/abilities are doctrinal... but how does that make the argument not valid in any way? Its exactly the same with every other faction, like ostruppen, 5man grens, wc51, valentine, commandos, pak howi drop etc. you need meta commanders to beat meta commanders


uhh when the entire midgame of a faction relies on a doctrine you know the faction is badly designed... stock SOV is not as competitive as any of the stock options that other factions get simply because it will be deleted in the midgame


ostruppen are simply OP, i dont think anyone would argue about that and specially soviets suffer against them, that doesnt make the soviet early-mid game weak.


but the soviet early-midgame is weak... the reason why sov can punish OKW is because of the M3 and how T1 can absolutely body OKW... and even without ostruppen the moment grenadiers or volksgrenadiers have a weapon upgrade conscripts start having and youre gonna have to fight tooth and nail till you get the T-70
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