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Nerf spec ops flares

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15 Jul 2020, 11:35 AM
#61
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1515



So for as low as 60 munitions cost; because the only way to counter flares is to move units out, your opponent can force you to abandon your whole frontline and defensive positions on a map like rails and metal. And you think this is ok? Are u ok?


Don't even try to argue anymore on most threads. Axis weaboos will defend it to the last man with arguments that escape reality. Just leave it be.
15 Jul 2020, 11:48 AM
#62
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 2243



So for as low as 60 munitions cost; because the only way to counter flares is to move units out, your opponent can force you to abandon your whole frontline and defensive positions on a map like rails and metal. And you think this is ok? Are u ok?

let me remind you that exactly this is your only option vs all arty area abiltys: move your whole armys away from it.
only that this flares makes zero dmg to your units...thats why its cheaper.
brits have alot of abiltys which makes you move all your units out of this place.even this bs basis arty from them require exact the same: move ur units. bs..rigth?
15 Jul 2020, 11:52 AM
#63
avatar of oootto92

Posts: 177


let me remind you that exactly this is your only option vs all arty area abiltys: move your whole armys away from it.
only that this flares makes zero dmg to your units...thats why its cheaper.
brits have alot of abiltys which makes you move all your units out of this place.even this bs basis arty from them require exact the same: move ur units. bs..rigth?


What is the duration, area of effect and cost of those said abilities? Let's have some comparisons made between those, spec ops flare and the UKF flare thingy.
15 Jul 2020, 12:04 PM
#64
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 940

Jesus Christ, Spec Ops is in a wheelchair as is. How many times do people even use it? As a doc it's inferior to GO, Feuer, Jagdtiger, hell even Overwatch.
15 Jul 2020, 12:08 PM
#65
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 2243



What is the duration, area of effect and cost of those said abilities? Let's have some comparisons made between those, spec ops flare and the UKF flare thingy.


yeah lets compare it with the brit commander which has not only the flares in a doc..with the sexton...no..it even has the overwatch abiltys which last 2minutes...and bombard all targets and deny any push/ capping try..this shit is op as fuck
15 Jul 2020, 12:10 PM
#66
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

The CD of the ability is too low, one should start from there and see how it goes.
15 Jul 2020, 12:13 PM
#67
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

Jesus Christ, Spec Ops is in a wheelchair as is. How many times do people even use it? As a doc it's inferior to GO, Feuer, Jagdtiger, hell even Overwatch.

Tell that to HelpingHans then, he doesn't seem to know it and uses it with great results all the time in 1v1 and team games alike.

Just because something is not the definitive go-to hardcore meta does not mean its not viable.
Spec OPs flares are OP and it couldn't be more irrelevant which doctrine they are in.
15 Jul 2020, 12:39 PM
#68
avatar of A table

Posts: 249

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Jul 2020, 12:10 PMVipper
The CD of the ability is too low, one should start from there and see how it goes.


No, imo the whole ability needs to be replaced or put in the Com.panther within a fixed range. Obviously no need to butcher it, but cooldown alone isn't nearly enough to justify that it cannot be countered in anyway other than holding both muni points.
15 Jul 2020, 12:52 PM
#69
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Jul 2020, 12:39 PMA table


No, imo the whole ability needs to be replaced or put in the Com.panther within a fixed range. Obviously no need to butcher it, but cooldown alone isn't nearly enough to justify that it cannot be countered in anyway other than holding both muni points.


Moving to C.Pan wold mean the ability would butchered since it would become available allot later while require a very expensive in order to be used. It would simply not be worth as commander since a similar ability is available to soviet mortar.

Unless you are suggesting to become a buff to C. Pan and to add a new ability to the commander.
15 Jul 2020, 13:35 PM
#70
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3104 | Subs: 2



The OKW doesn't have any scout units or other capabilities to scout (no sniper/222/T-70/M-20 and the stuka smoke strafe isn't a proper reco). The IR-HT got nerfed which was needed but is still a big impact on a core unit of the OKW, if you see more flares it is because that's the only remaining option for the OKW and the whole axis side.

Those flares are critical for the OKW and that's why they are criticizes. To counter the arty dominance of the Allies, flares are needed. To use properly the panzerwerfer, you need those flares. Both axis rocket arty are "precise strike" and not "wiping area machine".

Plus most of the "meta" Ostheer commander doesn't have reco plane, nerfing flares will just make the need of Elephant+Scope even more present.

So instead of crying out an OP ability which lasted for a decade (exactly like the T-70 is to the SU) and which is part of every teamgames tactics, try to give them first other viable options and see if it remain a must-have ability.

I can partially agree, but I'd still like to point out a few things:
1. The Stuka and Panzerwerfer are regularly played even if the commanders to not own a recon loiter or pass/flares.
2. If we neglect doctrinal recon then UKF and USF were also in quite a bad spot. They have a recon pass on one single unit, but none of these factions has non-doc heavy artillery which makes it less problematic

If you count the T70, you should not forget that OKW also gets the Puma as a recon unit though. I agree that Axis overall (mostly due to SOVs plentiful stock recon options though) lack a bit of recon. However, arguing with Axis' more precise rocket artillery twists it the wrong way. If Axis already have the ability to concentrate that much damage on a small area and thereby can wipe squads more easily, it should be more challenging to prepare these strikes. The OKW flare just makes it too easy.
15 Jul 2020, 14:25 PM
#71
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

Honestly the planes and flare should be made more specific how they function. Planes should reveal more area but can be shot down. Flares cant be shot but area they reveal should be very limited.

Its too bad the IR ability is bugged because that would the perfect approach for flares of all flavours. You get Intel without the ability to call in strikes. In contrast planes can allow for strikes but can be shot down and project their position to the enemy. Risk/reward. A concept entirely absent in off map flares.
15 Jul 2020, 14:28 PM
#72
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279



yeah lets compare it with the brit commander which has not only the flares in a doc..with the sexton...no..it even has the overwatch abiltys which last 2minutes...and bombard all targets and deny any push/ capping try..this shit is op as fuck

Once again.. OTHER THINGS BEING OP DOES NOT EXCUSE THE THINGS IN DISCUSSION BEING OP. FIX THEM ALL. THIS HOWEVER IS A THREAD ABOUT THIS THING BEING OP AND HOW TO FIX IT.
15 Jul 2020, 15:25 PM
#73
avatar of Latch

Posts: 773



The OKW doesn't have any scout units or other capabilities to scout (no sniper/222/T-70/M-20 and the stuka smoke strafe isn't a proper reco). The IR-HT got nerfed which was needed but is still a big impact on a core unit of the OKW, if you see more flares it is because that's the only remaining option for the OKW and the whole axis side.

Those flares are critical for the OKW and that's why they are criticizes. To counter the arty dominance of the Allies, flares are needed. To use properly the panzerwerfer, you need those flares. Both axis rocket arty are "precise strike" and not "wiping area machine".

Plus most of the "meta" Ostheer commander doesn't have reco plane, nerfing flares will just make the need of Elephant+Scope even more present.

So instead of crying out an OP ability which lasted for a decade (exactly like the T-70 is to the SU) and which is part of every teamgames tactics, try to give them first other viable options and see if it remain a must-have ability.


So because OKW dont have a "scout unit" they should instead have something that is OP nd we are supposed to be OK with that?

Noone is saying get rid of all OKW scout options, just sort the flares out, replace it with a loiter plane and job done.
15 Jul 2020, 15:56 PM
#74
avatar of Darkpiatre

Posts: 282

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Jul 2020, 15:25 PMLatch


So because OKW dont have a "scout unit" they should instead have something that is OP nd we are supposed to be OK with that?

Noone is saying get rid of all OKW scout options, just sort the flares out, replace it with a loiter plane and job done.


Nothing proved that it is OP, and if so, maybe it's for the greater good like the T-70.

And as every plane can be shot down, all faction relying on it have other option to not be ultra dependant (often non doctrinal). OKW now only has those flare and are so important that it justify taking the only commander who has it. So as I stated, nothing proves that it is OP, but everything point out that it has an important place in the OKW and teamgames.

Flares are strong and it must be considering the role it has to fulfill.
15 Jul 2020, 16:01 PM
#75
avatar of Darkpiatre

Posts: 282


I can partially agree, but I'd still like to point out a few things:
1. The Stuka and Panzerwerfer are regularly played even if the commanders to not own a recon loiter or pass/flares.
2. If we neglect doctrinal recon then UKF and USF were also in quite a bad spot. They have a recon pass on one single unit, but none of these factions has non-doc heavy artillery which makes it less problematic

If you count the T70, you should not forget that OKW also gets the Puma as a recon unit though. I agree that Axis overall (mostly due to SOVs plentiful stock recon options though) lack a bit of recon. However, arguing with Axis' more precise rocket artillery twists it the wrong way. If Axis already have the ability to concentrate that much damage on a small area and thereby can wipe squads more easily, it should be more challenging to prepare these strikes. The OKW flare just makes it too easy.


Stuka were often use in combinaison with the IR HF for obvious reasons, now that it is gone, flares took its place.
Panzerwerfer still find some use but the unit itself is bad so flares can help negate the really long launch time (wind up) of the launcher.
I talked about the T-70 because after the midgame it can find some use as a recon with it's vets and recon mode, I failed to find a similar use to the Puma but I don't play it often either.
15 Jul 2020, 16:20 PM
#76
avatar of Latch

Posts: 773



Nothing proved that it is OP, and if so, maybe it's for the greater good like the T-70.

And as every plane can be shot down, all faction relying on it have other option to not be ultra dependant (often non doctrinal). OKW now only has those flare and are so important that it justify taking the only commander who has it. So as I stated, nothing proves that it is OP, but everything point out that it has an important place in the OKW and teamgames.

Flares are strong and it must be considering the role it has to fulfill.


It gives vision wherever you want it, it is uncounterable (word?, it is cheap and spammable, its OP as fuck and always has been, all flares call ins are, at least with rifle flares you need to get close.
15 Jul 2020, 16:46 PM
#77
avatar of Darkpiatre

Posts: 282

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Jul 2020, 16:20 PMLatch


always has been


Noice, exactly like the T-70, maybe it is because it has a purpose and claiming without thinking that it is OP is just nonsense?
15 Jul 2020, 16:54 PM
#78
avatar of Alphrum

Posts: 808

have flares removed and give OKW non doc recon overpass which can be called in by the IR half track. (reword the IR half track overall). Similar to USF's major's recon
15 Jul 2020, 16:54 PM
#79
avatar of Latch

Posts: 773



Noice, exactly like the T-70, maybe it is because it has a purpose and claiming without thinking that it is OP is just nonsense?


Make a thread about the T70 and we will talk about the T70 until then, this is about flares and although it has already been said:

"Just because something else is OP doesnt mean this should be"
15 Jul 2020, 17:05 PM
#80
avatar of IncendiaryRounds:)

Posts: 1527

Permanently Banned
I have an idea that we replace counter battery on Ost mortar with SU mortar flare.
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