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Sander's personal balance changes

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6 Jul 2020, 08:04 AM
#1
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 2510 | Subs: 4

Since there is currently a lull in patch activity, I thought it would be a good time to post my personal thoughts on the current balance and what things I'd change next and have a proper discussion about them. Do note that these are specifically my ideas and opinions and that they do not necessarily reflect the vision of the community balance team as a whole.


Goal of these changes: mostly easy changes (just changing numbers) to improve the quality of the factions, to adjust some oppressive aspects, to make more units and abilities viable, without really touching the power level of the factions too much. I’m sure that there’s a dozen more meh commander abilities that I haven’t touched here, I just wrote down what came to mind. Certain changes are labelled 'experimental', meaning they are a more of a concept that would need to be extensively tested or that they are things I'm not too sure about.

Some things are copied from Miragefla's balance changes.

Do note that I’m a teamgames player (mostly 3v3) so there is a good chance not all 1v1 and 2v2 issues are addressed.

Obviously, everything and especially all the numbers are subject to change. This is a first iteration of changes and obviously not everything has gone through a devil's advocate check yet (hence this discussion).


I'd like to ask everyone to keep this discussion civil and focus on discussing the changes. You can obviously make your own suggestions too. I kindly ask the moderators to stop any personal arguments, troll posts or blatant fanboyism.



Updated complete notes (V3):

Global Changes



OKW



OST



SOV



UKF



USF
6 Jul 2020, 08:46 AM
#2
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2178 | Subs: 1

Excellent changes.

The only thing missing is the UKF special weapons regiment. Miragefla had a buff/bug fix for Hold the Line in his version. This is needed because the ability as it is know is more of a noob trap and will likely just waste 250 munitions for nothing. Also the resupply HT comes way too late at 4 CP and the weapon drop should not require the weapon upgrade at HQ.

Also I would suggest a change to UKF bolster. Make it so you have to pay the normal price for bolster at HQ as it is now. But then make every squad pay 45-60 munitions for the extra model. Make it a weapon upgrade that takes up one slot like the the VSL upgrade for Grenadiers. That makes Bolster cost munitions and prevents UKF players from being able to use muni-based abilities like grenades, off-maps etc so much. It also makes bolstered infantry sections come later. It also prevents 5 man 2x bren squads.

BTW: Both miragefla and you have made these mods and they both are really good, I am confused why the actual balance patches end up being so meh most of the time. Is it just Relic's "scope" or what is the matter?

6 Jul 2020, 08:52 AM
#3
avatar of Descolata

Posts: 87

I noticed the light suggestions for UKF. Any thoughts on increasing Vickers HMG suppression? I've found it to be a liability instead of a proper asset. It doesnt suppress charging elite squads before getting bundled and its Vet 1 is... dumb.

I suggest shift half the power of Vet 2 suppression into the HMG and make Vet 1 range and vision bonus apply when deployed in green cover, not only garrisons. Or give the Vickers a real ability. Incentives static play and not proper MG shoot n scoot.

Also, the Soviet ML/20 is a straight worse version of the le18. Giving it back an ability would be good.
6 Jul 2020, 08:59 AM
#4
avatar of Descolata

Posts: 87

Excellent changes.

The only thing missing is the UKF special weapons regiment. Miragefla had a buff/bug fix for Hold the Line in his version. This is needed because the ability as it is know is more of a noob trap and will likely just waste 250 munitions for nothing. Also the resupply HT comes way too late at 4 CP and the weapon drop should not require the weapon upgrade at HQ.

Also I would suggest a change to UKF bolster. Make it so you have to pay the normal price for bolster at HQ as it is now. But then make every squad pay 45-60 munitions for the extra model. Make it a weapon upgrade that takes up one slot like the the VSL upgrade for Grenadiers. That makes Bolster cost munitions and prevents UKF players from being able to use muni-based abilities like grenades, off-maps etc so much. It also makes bolstered infantry sections come later. It also prevents 5 man 2x bren squads.

BTW: Both miragefla and you have made these mods and they both are really good, I am confused why the actual balance patches end up being so meh most of the time. Is it just Relic's "scope" or what is the matter?



This would direct weaken Tommies and Tommies ability to assault positions and counter blobs (nade spam has worked for me). This would really hammer the infantry balance. Would some other QoL changes for UKF be in order? Buff the MG, make the Bren gun usable while walking, or (heresy i know) give sections a snare. Or, maybe a big ask, make the sections 7 pop instead of 8 as they lose "elite infantry" status.
6 Jul 2020, 09:01 AM
#5
avatar of Osinyagov
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 1326

I like some changes very much (like Penals or final standartized Panzer IVs), but also would like to mention one thing. With Panzer IV applied changes, OKW and Ostheer will be copipast of each other in late game, since they have similar Panthers and now Panzer IVs.

Maybe it's not an issue in the first place, but i think it's not ok, when two factions have the same playstyle in late game. In vCoH Panzer Elite and Wehrmacht both have Panzer IV and Panther too, but:
- Panzer IV were completely different in terms of firepower, upgrades and veterancy.
- Panthers were different in term of veterancy system and type of access.

Edit: Putting doctrinal vehicles in tiers (lie mentioned Valentine) will lead to more chaos in doctrinal vehicles system, since it wasn't bring to some common design. Why not follow the variant from september patch with CP + tier requirement?
6 Jul 2020, 09:06 AM
#6
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 1641 | Subs: 2

I look at the T-34 changes and think - what's the point? The T-34 is currently only useful for one role as being a suicide along with an Airborne Commander. And they reduce his role without giving anything in return, if people are so worried about ramming - remove him and finally make the T-34 useful.
6 Jul 2020, 09:17 AM
#7
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 2510 | Subs: 4

OKW and Ostheer will be copipast of each other in late game, since they have similar Panthers and now Panzer IVs.

Only partially. I'd expect OKW to always upgrade their P4 to the Ausf.J standard (because it's so good) so essentially nothing would change, except that acquiring the tank would be a bit smoother or that in some cases the OKW player is behind and can't afford to upgrade.


Edit: Putting doctrinal vehicles in tiers (lie mentioned Valentine) will lead to more chaos in doctrinal vehicles system, since it wasn't bring to some common design. Why not follow the variant from september patch with CP + tier requirement?

There is nothing in the UKF tech structure to lock the Valentine behind. Platoon and AEC tech would be too soon (or rather it wouldn't affect anything) and Company tech would be too late.

Personally I would have loved to introduce a special tech upgrade for most/all doctrinal vehicles so that their timing could be finetuned down to a single drop of fuel, but that ship has sailed unfortunately. As is, even if it's a bit messy, I think individual/unique requirements are the best way to balance certain units without having to touch their performance.
6 Jul 2020, 09:27 AM
#8
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15807 | Subs: 7

120mm barrage is still worse then autofire.

Penal changes might only cripple openings with T1 as by the time you get 1st penal out, you've lost map control and field presence battle, unless you want to increase value of M3 as a shock unit to make up for weaker penals.

Ost already have most healing options in game, I can't see the point of giving them even more.

BGHQ seems alright, but OKW is turning into PE at this point. Not that I mind.

OKW flak HT might be way too oppressive with fire on the move, it already instapins anything out of cover and easily destroys green cover(I've had multiple engagements where any cover that wouldn't be garrison or on-map trench preset would just be destroyed and guards would be pinned and murdered in moments).
6 Jul 2020, 09:29 AM
#9
avatar of WAAAGH2000

Posts: 562

Something could work……
For Penal and Soviet Mobilize Reserve I think it could be passive ability ,Penal and Consript and weapon squad reduce reinforcement cost by 2
UKF 5 men squad maybe could like Consript Mobilize Reserve,free unlock after UKF T2 but need 1 slot for single squad
OKW pioneer Scharck maybe could not lock out minesweeper too,at least StormPioneer need 8 population
Also OKW tech tree could like USF too?All HQ will have 2 phase,T4 need full upgrade T2 or T3,or basis T2+ basis T3
And UKF T2 upgrade,maybe bofos and AEC could bound together if will increase T2 upgrade cost
6 Jul 2020, 09:35 AM
#10
avatar of Zzoner

Posts: 47

Hi Sander

I can't stress out how important it is to have open communication with the community- we can clearly see the scope of the patches and have much more meaningful discussions.

I believe all changes are healthy for the game. I agree with your version a little more compared to miragefla's but the core is very solid and touches most of the problems across game modes.

I would like to ask some more thought into STUG III G's veterancy. Now veterancy 1 and 2 are adding zero benefits to the unit. I believe that veterancy II should add a passive ability like spearhead or spotting scopes (maybe adjusted) to help the unit with it's intended role and reward keeping it alive.
6 Jul 2020, 09:39 AM
#11
avatar of A table

Posts: 238

I think most of these are great changes, but i do have a question regarding Grenadiers:

Grenadiers G43 upgrade

- Now gives a total of 3 G43s
- Reduced moving accuracy of Gren G43 so that now three rifles have the same total moving DPS as two rifles had previously

Does this mean that the G43's take a single weapon slot when upgraded? OR will one of the G43's be replaced when picking up a 2nd weapon?
6 Jul 2020, 09:41 AM
#12
avatar of Osinyagov
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 1326


Only partially. I'd expect OKW to always upgrade their P4 to the Ausf.J standard (because it's so good) so essentially nothing would change, except that acquiring the tank would be a bit smoother. Which should help make OKW's mid game a bit better.


Not really, since J is also available for Ostheer. In that case, you will have pretty same Panzer IV in tier 3 and in Tier 0 with only difference in upgrade for armor. If it's include some other changes, connected with battle performance, than it a nightmare to show it in the game with UI, since the only change to the model - skirts. Will be clumpsy.

On the other hand, if Ostheer Panzer IV J will stay as it is, it will lead to more misunderstanding (3 variants of Panzer IV with same model and close performance).

All i want to say, that suggested changes for Panzer IV J are not optimal, since they leed to even more merge between OKW and Ostheer playstyles. But i do agree, that Panzer IV situation need some attention.

I would also like to mention Panthers as well, since both faction end up with massed Panthers, but it's kind of offtopic for this list.



6 Jul 2020, 09:58 AM
#13
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 2510 | Subs: 4

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Jul 2020, 09:35 AMZzoner
I would like to ask some more thought into STUG III G's veterancy. Now veterancy 1 and 2 are adding zero benefits to the unit. I believe that veterancy II should add a passive ability like spearhead or spotting scopes (maybe adjusted) to help the unit with it's intended role and reward keeping it alive.

I've thought about giving the Stug III ausf.G at least a veterancy accuracy bonus, as it is the only TD that doesn't get one. However I am a bit reluctant to further buff the StuG because it's already a very cost effective unit and further improvements might push it over the edge and make it too spammable again (which was a problem in teamgames before the reload nerf).


I think most of these are great changes, but i do have a question regarding Grenadiers:

Does this mean that the G43's take a single weapon slot when upgraded? OR will one of the G43's be replaced when picking up a 2nd weapon?

I thought the upgrade took 1 weapon slot. I've updated the change to make it require 1 weapon slot.

6 Jul 2020, 09:58 AM
#14
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 2966 | Subs: 1

Banned
Some of them are good (CP4, okw BGHQ), but some are absolutely criminal (222 gets neutered, can’t protect from countersnipe anymore which tilts sniper wars vs ukf in their favour, ost recrewing with 2 models (?????), 3 G43 Grens is too good, OKW schwerer stays same but gets doctrinal Ostwind 30 fuel earlier so locking both cutoff and fuel is even safer, flak HT and command Panther overbuffed.)

Incredibly mind blowing Ost and OKW buffs. This needs to be scaled back a lot.
6 Jul 2020, 09:59 AM
#15
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 4434

Looks good. I like most of it and at the time of writing this I don't recall exactly the ones I didn't like quite as much so obviously I don't dislike them enough for it to stick. Good work!
6 Jul 2020, 10:02 AM
#16
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 1320 | Subs: 1

I'll make a more detailed response later on. Overall these would be very good changes.

However I am not sure about some of the OKW ones. For example the OKW P4: Currently there is a clear trade off: You get a stock tank with stats like a premium medium, but have to pay more and wait a minute longer. Now I understand that you are directly trying to target this. But in the end OKW gets a normal medium but, unlike all other factions, would be able to make it scale better into the late game. There is no trade off anymore. You get a normal medium tank "early" AND get the premium version a bit later. Also it would make the faction even closer to OST, which I find generally not that great. Maybe other players can elaborate if OKW really has such big issues due to a late medium tank, from my experience it was not too bad but I mostly rely on 2v2 and 3v3 games.

Second: The OKW BGHQ tech rework. While the idea is very similar to what happened to USF teching, it would bake OKW teching a real clutter. Build the truck first, then build the BGHQ, then medics and upgrade. Then you build the next truck, select base Schwerer HQ, upgrade that one and finally you get tanks. That's actually getting close to OST levels in terms of clicking to get somewhere.
6 Jul 2020, 10:05 AM
#17
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 2872 | Subs: 1

Way too much changes at the same time. its confusing.
6 Jul 2020, 10:12 AM
#20
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1311

Excellent changes streamlining the game more than changing it much. TBFH I'm loving all of them and would implement them asap.
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