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Vote for: Perimeter Overwatch Change

19 May 2020, 18:35 PM
#61
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12248 | Subs: 1



On topic, does both Perimeter Overwatch and Sector Artillery (the closest other) target all enemies in all sectors with independent off-maps? I keep seeing single unit tests, but I seem to remember Perimeter Overwatch just dumps on 1 target per sector in the re-work patch notes. This makes it a lot more weak sauce vs large balls where the base howitzers aren't forcing off. Also, it is weak sauce vs armor (again, as long as one doesn't sit in the base artillery barrage).

It doesn't stop armor trains very well.


I'll get back with test results.

The idea that it should stop armor is problematic to begin with. Trying to counter self propelled arty is difficult to begin with and the combination of the SPA with global defensive ability is simply bad. How would one supposed to counter the Sexton if the perimeter over watch stop all attacks for a long duration?
19 May 2020, 18:40 PM
#62
avatar of Descolata

Posts: 479

Back with results. Both target 1 unit at semi-random with their off-maps. Sector Arty did EXCEPTIONALLY more damage vs tanks (kinda to-be expected). Sector Arty ramps up as long it maintains targetting, and has an 8 second grace period to get targgetting back on before resetting ramp. I put down 5 panthers, it murdered 2, weapon critted 2, last one had half health.

Perimeter Overwatch just lasts too long, and gives too much vision. It is only nasty where the howitzers are pointed and have vision, and pretty stinking weak otherwise. Did about the same damage to 5 Panther tanks over the entire ability. The howitzers do not scale with number of troops, or at all, so Perimeter Overwatch will stop 1 push at a time, with a lot of time (~3-5s) waiting on base arty set up.

The huge amount of vision basically makes PO weak sauce sector artillery, but with PERMANENT VISION, SA's primary weakness.

The lack of any sign besides initial shells is naaaasty, it could use some red smoke across affected sectors.

If the howitzers are pointed correctly, there is maybe a 3-4 second time delay on the shell (just flight time). Most off-map artillery lands after about 8 seconds (as does the Perimeter Overwatch off-map).
19 May 2020, 18:44 PM
#63
avatar of Descolata

Posts: 479

jump backJump back to quoted post19 May 2020, 18:35 PMVipper

The idea that it should stop armor is problematic to begin with. Trying to counter self propelled arty is difficult to begin with and the combination of the SPA with global defensive ability is simply bad. How would one supposed to counter the Sexton if the perimeter over watch stop all attacks for a long duration?


In my team games, generally the game hinges on whether the team gets rolled by a Panther train. So an answer is 3 Panthers. Sextons are already crazy rare in 1v1, so not an issue there. Another solution is to get close and panzerwerfer the Sexton. Sexton's don't have huge range, and are pretty squishy. I've lost them to well placed arti before. Counter-battery leFH also forces Sextons to move (I've made my opinion known about this, ML/20 should have CB).

PO is mostly used when a huge amount of munis are being floated and I need to stop a single push. It does not stop multiple pushes at once, as 1 Sexton shell and 1 mortar every 8 seconds just is not a lot of incoming fire (and decapping disables the ability in that sector).
19 May 2020, 19:04 PM
#64
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 940

Removing Vision would solve the problem; Therefore youd still need scouting or the use of another scouting effect.

It only gives a small vision buff to flagpoles and it doesn't target units in the FoW. It mostly relies on either friendly units to spot or sight from the flag poles.

However I figured out that the flag pole sight buff from Anvil Tactics stacks with the flag pole sight buff from PO and can make most of friendly territory visible in smaller maps because flagpoles get like 40 vision in total when PO is active with Anvil researched. Which is a pretty big problem to be honest as it does essentially make the ability mostly self-spotting.

Seems like the issue is resolved, then? Fixing the "stacking" between anvil and the ability would remove the vast majority of the self-spotting, which would bring it inline with most similar abilities.

jump backJump back to quoted post18 May 2020, 19:44 PMKatitof
It would also remove the point of the ability, there would be no reason what so ever over using any other offmap.

Have you checked the name and theme of the commander yet?

A bug/oversight shouldn't be the reason an ability is good or bad. The amount of LOS it provides in optimal situations is absurd.

Also, justifying a doc over-performing because of the name/theme isn't a good idea. Can we replace all the strafes with loiters in OST's "Close Air Support" doc? It would fit the theme/name better.

No it wouldn't, vision is not the point of the ability. Vision is the point of early warning flares, which is on the same commander

All other abilities that do the targeting for you do not spot for themselves

Early Warning Flares are another problematic ability. Massive uncounterable vision, but uncontrollable where it goes. it feels bad for both sides.

Flares, in general, need to be removed. Zero-counterplay vision doesn't fit the game.

There is counterplay due to how the guns operate, they will target the unit barraging closest. So by using a dummy mortar you can shield any howitzer behind it.

One howitzer 30muni barrage even in range will not reliably kill or decrew a lefh. You need two howitzers for good odds to decrew so 60muni + not bring able to build units. Then the axis can return and repair/recrew.

Axis howitzers can already counter barrage at vet1, it's not op

Brit counter battery can already target howitzers on most 1vs1 maps and even small 2vs2 maps. It's not OP

Yet in 4vs4 it can't hit leigs in the middle of some maps like steppes... It needs a range buff

The difference is, UKF's counter-barrage can't be destroyed. If an LeFH is bothering you with its counter-barrage, simply recon+off map it, and its gone - as is the ability. A new LeFH (or crew) would need to get to vet 1 again to use counter-barrage. However, UKF's 25lbs are in the base sector, meaning they can't be off-mapped. They're also part of the base structure itself, so even if you do hit it with on-map, it won't be decrewed or destroyed.

So it's a trade-off; less 'usable' range and a small cost, in exchange for it being indestructible.

As for "baiting" a counter-barrage with a mortar; it wouldn't actually work. There's no indication that the UKF player has selected counter-barrage, until its already firing. That means you'd need to preemptively fire a mortar closer to the UKF's base every single time you wanted to use your LeFH, simply do avoid an uncounterable, cheap, one-click ability. Also, I'm fairly certain the LeFH barrage lasts longer than a mortar barrage, so you'd need to either attack-ground with the mortar the entire time, or have two mortars; otherwise the UKF player could wait for the mortar to stop, before clicking the button.
19 May 2020, 19:14 PM
#65
avatar of Descolata

Posts: 479



Seems like the issue is resolved, then? Fixing the "stacking" between anvil and the ability would remove the vast majority of the self-spotting, which would bring it inline with most similar abilities.


A bug/oversight shouldn't be the reason an ability is good or bad. The amount of LOS it provides in optimal situations is absurd.

Also, justifying a doc over-performing because of the name/theme isn't a good idea. Can we replace all the strafes with loiters in OST's "Close Air Support" doc? It would fit the theme/name better.



Flares, in general, need to be removed. Zero-counterplay vision doesn't fit the game.


The difference is, UKF's counter-barrage can't be destroyed. If an LeFH is bothering you with its counter-barrage, simply recon+off map it, and its gone - as is the ability. A new LeFH (or crew) would need to get to vet 1 again to use counter-barrage. However, UKF's 25lbs are in the base sector, meaning they can't be off-mapped. They're also part of the base structure itself, so even if you do hit it with on-map, it won't be decrewed or destroyed.

So it's a trade-off; less 'usable' range and a small cost, in exchange for it being indestructible.

As for "baiting" a counter-barrage with a mortar; it wouldn't actually work. There's no indication that the UKF player has selected counter-barrage, until its already firing. That means you'd need to preemptively fire a mortar closer to the UKF's base every single time you wanted to use your LeFH, simply do avoid an uncounterable, cheap, one-click ability. Also, I'm fairly certain the LeFH barrage lasts longer than a mortar barrage, so you'd need to either attack-ground with the mortar the entire time, or have two mortars; otherwise the UKF player could wait for the mortar to stop, before clicking the button.


Mortar barrage is 18 seconds, leFH is 43, per Stein's Data Crunching. leFH is gonna get shelled.

To stay on topic, from your discussion UKF Counter Battery is currently in a Catch 22, if it had range its oppressive, but without range it is worthless. So it is not a viable replacement for PO.

Concensus appears to just remove bonus pole range and look into duration. This also gives Anvil a use, as the pole range from that lets it self spot pushes (kinda, if they decap it insta stops the ability).

I didn't even know till now Anvil gave pole vision.
19 May 2020, 19:31 PM
#66
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12248 | Subs: 1



In my team games, generally the game hinges on whether the team gets rolled by a Panther train. So an answer is 3 Panthers. Sextons are already crazy rare in 1v1, so not an issue there. Another solution is to get close and panzerwerfer the Sexton. Sexton's don't have huge range, and are pretty squishy. I've lost them to well placed arti before. Counter-battery leFH also forces Sextons to move (I've made my opinion known about this, ML/20 should have CB).

PO is mostly used when a huge amount of munis are being floated and I need to stop a single push. It does not stop multiple pushes at once, as 1 Sexton shell and 1 mortar every 8 seconds just is not a lot of incoming fire (and decapping disables the ability in that sector).

Great work in testing coming back with the result although the test are strange since sector artillery is designed to to devastating to static units in the fire zone. I would have to guess that if you do similar test against moving target you will get different results.

But I have to point Sexton is dirty cheap. Having to risk a Panther to kill it Sexton is not worth it. Perimeter over watch should not in any way be a counter to everything including Panthers.

As for Sexton the are not squishy since the can take 2 direct hits.
20 May 2020, 15:49 PM
#67
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 833

Can you add a poll for swapping the ability with counter barrage as me and copper suggested
20 May 2020, 15:54 PM
#68
avatar of Sturmpanther
Lead Strategist Badge

Posts: 5383 | Subs: 28

Can you add a poll for swapping the ability with counter barrage as me and copper suggested


sorry this will not happend as patch.
20 May 2020, 22:56 PM
#69
avatar of Thoton

Posts: 8

Funny how I suggested a decent change in CoH2 discord and many people agreed to me. But still the complete opposite was put up for a vote. Tried to prevent the 4x nerf
21 May 2020, 08:36 AM
#70
avatar of Sturmpanther
Lead Strategist Badge

Posts: 5383 | Subs: 28

jump backJump back to quoted post20 May 2020, 22:56 PMThoton
Funny how I suggested a decent change in CoH2 discord and many people agreed to me. But still the complete opposite was put up for a vote. Tried to prevent the 4x nerf


A) not sure if a change will come at all ( i hope tho)

B) yes i agree 4 real nerfs would be too hard.

C) You maybe learned from the past, that we never go 1-1 from the poll changes wishes. It is just a help to see how people think.

D) Your suggestion is not an option, what would happend in a hotfix / patch, so i did not listed it up.
21 May 2020, 23:42 PM
#71
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12248 | Subs: 1

Imo it probable that perimeter overwatch issue is related to the changes in moving accuracy of IS.

With that changes upgrading to Brens seem to have become less desirable since one now lose considerable DPS on the move unlike before and bolster IS seem to able to deal with enemy mainline infatry adequately with little investment to weapon upgrades.

That seem to have lead UKF to stockpile munition easier and use grenades and their powerful off map abilities more often.

One may need to rethink this changes in relationship to the design and performance of bren.
1 Jun 2020, 15:29 PM
#72
avatar of Applejack

Posts: 273



A) not sure if a change will come at all ( i hope tho)

B) yes i agree 4 real nerfs would be too hard.

C) You maybe learned from the past, that we never go 1-1 from the poll changes wishes. It is just a help to see how people think.

D) Your suggestion is not an option, what would happend in a hotfix / patch, so i did not listed it up.


I'm glad that it is this way. These polls are pretty much useless as it doesn't represent the community as a whole and is very vulnerable to fudging with the low amount of votes.

I enjoy the discussions on how to balance or change an ability on these forums though.

I think Perimeter Overwatch is fine. The only annoying thing is it lasts as long as it does however it requires a lot of variables for it to be effective.

1. It requires units to be standing still (effective vs static emplacements).

2. It requires vision.

3. It requires control of territory and can be negated by contesting the territory.

4. It requires 250 muni for 120 seconds

I support a changed down to 125 muni for 60 seconds but it feels a lot weaker at 60 seconds especially with how slow the base arty fire.

All these are very easy to counter unless you somehow have a static emplacement in enemy controlled territory which is a big oof in that case. Usually rushing down the point with some infantry is enough to cancel the barrage in that territory and provide safety for troops fighting there. This is much harder to do while multi-tasking than a single push though.

I don't think this ability isn't that great compared to combined doctorinal abilities (vision + arty) like recon and zeroing arty. Its just that players haven't found a counter or have not learned how to counter it yet.
8 Jun 2020, 11:22 AM
#73
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 2006 | Subs: 1

if you decrease muni cost it will be spammed even more.

the problem that it has no counter will stay.

looking forward to that glorious balance times
3 Jul 2020, 06:51 AM
#74
avatar of Rocket

Posts: 646

Wow ok then fix OKW’s too. sure small circle but not enough time to get anything out of it unless the very edge it it guarantee kills every single unit And even retreating ones. Put it on USF fwd retreat lmao a joke you lose everything ts fine though. Abusive 4v4 kinda like 3 or 4x falls that no allied inf can fight
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