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Should soviet Combat E ngineers be buffed?

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30 Mar 2020, 11:18 AM
#141
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15226 | Subs: 7

Another option is to make pios cost 180.

Another option is for you to post a replay, where you have lost the game so badly to CEs that you won't let go of wanting to nerf weakest unit in game.
30 Mar 2020, 11:18 AM
#142
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 984



Nah. To prove his point that CE aren't effective after losing 90% of the map is to game the matchup by retreat path blobbing around his minesweeper.

A good way to use quarantine :)

But honestly imo the real thing is not their combat stats. What a lot of people don't see is the fact that you have access to 170mp unit that can support vehicles with mines, sweepers, repairs, and that makes the game imbalanced. Of course, slightly. But the last tournament proved exactly that. Soviets could repair their damaged IS2s and other stuff so much more easily by using double CEs plus other repair abilities. OKW, for example, was far behind with buying 300mp sturmpios trying to repair their panthers and no extra repair abilities.
30 Mar 2020, 11:23 AM
#143
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 984

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Mar 2020, 11:18 AMKatitof

Another option is for you to post a replay, where you have lost the game so badly to CEs that you won't let go of weakest unit in game.


It is not the weakest! It is the best in game engineer, largely due to its price.
30 Mar 2020, 11:24 AM
#144
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15226 | Subs: 7



It is not the weakest! It is the best in game engineer, largely due to its price.

Because the price is the only thing going for it... it doesn't have anything else that would be advantage over other 4.
30 Mar 2020, 11:28 AM
#145
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2638



Nah. To prove his point that CE aren't effective after losing 90% of the map is to game the matchup by retreat path blobbing around his minesweeper.


Obviously, that’s the best way to delete 4man squads with no defensive bonuses that keep overextending. You were constantly setting yourself up for wipes.
30 Mar 2020, 11:30 AM
#146
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 984

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Mar 2020, 11:24 AMKatitof

Because the price is the only thing going for it... it doesn't have anything else that would be advantage over other 4.

It has the best mines and is a decent early game infantry unit as long as you use it in a way similar to grens. But, above all, it is the best tank doctor in game (this due to its price with all the repair stats of more expensive enigies)
30 Mar 2020, 11:30 AM
#147
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8291 | Subs: 1

Half the game is knowing your opponents strategy and adapting.
30 Mar 2020, 11:37 AM
#148
avatar of Olekman
Modmaker Badge

Posts: 117



Nah. To prove his point that CE aren't effective after losing 90% of the map is to game the matchup by retreat path blobbing around his minesweeper.




Seriously though, I think this is a bad way of testing whether your strategy is viable or not. It's better to try it out with people that: a) don't know what you're planning; b) are in your "weight category".

What others have said before still holds - CEs are (marginally, but nonetheless) more expensive to reinforce than Conscripts, lack good veterancy bonuses, lack anti-tank snare... Even if you take into account the received accuracy penalty, the Conscripts still have roughly 28% more total health and they lose DPS slower than CEs.
30 Mar 2020, 11:39 AM
#149
avatar of porkloin

Posts: 186



Obviously, that’s the best way to delete 4man squads with no defensive bonuses that keep overextending. You were constantly setting yourself up for wipes.


I played off-faction in a match-up I'm unfamiliar with.

You knew what you were playing against ahead of time, gamed the matchup as hard as you could, and are to afraid to rematch lol.
30 Mar 2020, 11:45 AM
#150
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2638



Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Show me some high level games where CE spam gets stomped if you think it's non-viable.


https://www.twitch.tv/videos/559666296?t=10340s

Price vs Kimbo during Kimbo’s tournament. This is the highest level CE spam game you’ll find online.





I played off-faction in a match-up I'm unfamiliar with.

You knew what you were playing against ahead of time, gamed the matchup as hard as you could, and are to afraid to rematch lol.


1) I’m rank 72 Sov with the third highest win streak on the ladder at +16. I think I can judge whether a strat is good or not better than you.

2) Knowing or not, my start is standard and with the 5 early CE squads on the field it’s very easy to decide what to do. If anything, I played exactly how I always play.

3) There is absolutely nothing gamey about blobbing on retreat paths, that’s like 1v1 basics. That’s how you punish 4 man squads with no defensive bonuses that overextend like idiots. This is how you hardcounter weak infantry spam. You also couldn’t touch my infantry blob because your infantry was worthless and you were just bleeding mp like crazy.

4) I have been very respectful to you and helpful. I am neither your 1v1 partner nor do I owe you anything. I was gracious enough to give you time of my day to accept your challenge and show you why CE spam is bad. You don’t get to taunt and you don’t get to demand more 1v1s. Learn some manners.
30 Mar 2020, 12:08 PM
#151
avatar of porkloin

Posts: 186

So just so we're clear: CE have stats on par with mainline infantry, excellent utility, cost, and are in the best mine army in the game.

Unfortunately they don't shoot while retreating thus they are an UP worker unit in need of a buff.

Did I get that right?
30 Mar 2020, 12:12 PM
#152
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15226 | Subs: 7

So just so we're clear: CE have stats on par with mainline infantry, excellent utility, cost, and are in the best mine army in the game.

Unfortunately they don't shoot while retreating thus they are an UP worker unit in need of a buff.

Did I get that right?

You forgot about the part where all of that falls apart the moment any infantry gets to vet1 or above.

Also, do you need some glasses? Because you've got a link where CE spam was roflstomped in few mins at competitive level - have you not seen that?

Your logic is same as "grens have best infantry stats per model basis and are cheaper, so just spam them and they will beat rifles", but then reality hits.
30 Mar 2020, 12:30 PM
#153
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 984

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Mar 2020, 12:12 PMKatitof

You forgot about the part where all of that falls apart the moment any infantry gets to vet1 or above.

Also, do you need some glasses? Because you've got a link where CE spam was roflstomped in few mins at competitive level - have you not seen that?

Your logic is same as "grens have best infantry stats per model basis and are cheaper, so just spam them and they will beat rifles", but then reality hits.

No, no, no. He was probably only trying to show that CEs aren't as bad as the author of the post suggested. They are decent engineers and combat unit. More decent than 170manpower value seems to suggest. They definitely don't need buffs! The only thing that should be analysed imo is whether they should be so cheap - imo there is very little reason for them to be that cheap, as it leads to imbalance, especially when you look at CEs from the perspective of a tank doctor.
30 Mar 2020, 12:36 PM
#154
avatar of porkloin

Posts: 186

jump backJump back to quoted post30 Mar 2020, 12:12 PMKatitof

You forgot about the part where all of that falls apart the moment any infantry gets to vet1 or above.

Also, do you need some glasses? Because you've got a link where CE spam was roflstomped in few mins at competitive level - have you not seen that?

Your logic is same as "grens have best infantry stats per model basis and are cheaper, so just spam them and they will beat rifles", but then reality hits.


Ah. So I guess partisans ought to be nerfed since kimbo clowns on stormjaeger with them in the match just before that. There's absolutely no skill difference whatsoever going on you see.

If gren models were like 20 manpower they would be the best infantry. Hell even now they're better than rifles until officers start hitting the field.
30 Mar 2020, 12:38 PM
#155
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2638



Ah. So I guess partisans ought to be nerfed since kimbo clowns on stormjaeger with them in the match just before that. .



Partysans were absolute dogshite. If Kimbo played properly he’d have won within like 10mins since he’s a far superior player.

If anything it proves that a bad strat hampers you.
30 Mar 2020, 12:40 PM
#156
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15226 | Subs: 7



Ah. So I guess partisans ought to be nerfed since kimbo clowns on stormjaeger with them in the match just before that. There's absolutely no skill difference whatsoever going on you see.

If gren models were like 20 manpower they would be the best infantry. Hell even now they're better than rifles until officers start hitting the field.

Good player can beat worse player with anything.
That's the only conclusion you can get from it.

If something is strong, its used at competitive level, against other competitive players.
Neither CE spam, nor partisans are.

You're claiming now that these are OP, follow your claim through and provide a proof that isn't a starwman.
30 Mar 2020, 12:44 PM
#157
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 984

Can anybody relate to the fact that because CEs are more easily replaceable, it leads to Soviets being a bit better than other armies and that maybe by raising their price to 200mp the game has a chance of being more balanced. The fact that they can fight is already clearly established
30 Mar 2020, 12:46 PM
#158
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2638

Can anybody relate to the fact that because CEs are more easily replaceable, it leads to Soviets being a bit better than other armies and that maybe by raising their price to 200mp the game has a chance of being more balanced. The fact that they can fight is already clearly established


No
30 Mar 2020, 12:49 PM
#159
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15226 | Subs: 7

Can anybody relate to the fact that because CEs are more easily replaceable, it leads to Soviets being a bit better than other armies and that maybe by raising their price to 200mp the game has a chance of being more balanced. The fact that they can fight is already clearly established

So you'll have more very weak, unvetted squads that can't vet up due to being decimated in mid/late game by vet2/3 squads with weapon upgrades.

Also, if its so good, please provide replays proving it.

You know allied unit is perfectly fine, when even snek doesn't find it "problematic".

They can fight exclusively within first 3 minutes of the game, the moment other infantries get to vet1 or weapon ugprade, its just roflstomp.

If you don't agree with it, provide a replay that shows otherwise.

For now, we have a replay proving you are completely wrong to the point where your further attempts to paint them as too strong only paints a picture of you being a noob beyond recovery.

Provide a replay or stop embarrassing yourself if you want anyone to take anything you say seriously in the future, otherwise you'll become 2nd thekingsown.
30 Mar 2020, 12:53 PM
#160
avatar of porkloin

Posts: 186

For the naysayers: which worker unit is the strongest right now?
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