Login

russian armor

Ditch the Sherman Dozer Attachment

9 Mar 2020, 23:50 PM
#1
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3222

This came up in the shoutbox, and should probably be addressed.

The 1.3 patch came with a clever change for medium tanks: reduced target size, making them all a bit more survivable. Specialist vehicles like the Firefly and the Sherman Bulldozer did not receive this buff: they've got extra range/health/armour already.

But this is also a buff to an upgrade that should never have existed in the first place: the Bulldozer Attachment for the basic Sherman.

For those who don't know, you spend a little fuel and lose a little mobility. In return, the basic 76mm Sherman gets premium medium's armour and can take an extra 160 damage AT hit, which lets it handily beat enemy mediums.

The existence of this thing undermines every other premium medium in the USF lineup. It's got all the durability and utility of the 106 Sherman Bulldozer, but keeps its AT capability. It beats Panzer IVs as handily as a 76mm or Easy Eight, but unlike those two gets to keep its HE rounds. If you go Urban Assault, it gets the Comet's White Phosphorus too.

This is like looking at OKW Mechanized and deciding it needs a 70 FU vehicle with the Luchs' AI, the Puma's AT, and the ability to frontally wipe ATGs. It's an awful design.



At a bare minimum, teching the dozer upgrade should revert the Sherman's target size to 23. There's no justification for this thing having a better target size than the 105 when it gets to steal its armour and health.

Better still, remove this thing from the game entirely. Mechanized really doesn't need it, and Urban Assault can have the thematically appropriate and sadly overused Sherman 105.
10 Mar 2020, 00:08 AM
#2
avatar of Rosbone
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 1098 | Subs: 2

I am a fan of the heavy crush from the dozer.
10 Mar 2020, 00:21 AM
#3
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8574 | Subs: 1

I have pointed out the same things about the Dozer (minus the target size) in during preview. There is no need for this upgrade.

(one could try to remove the dozer blade from them 105mm but I see little reason in it).
10 Mar 2020, 01:13 AM
#4
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1360 | Subs: 3

It just has too many benefits in one package. It has the plusses of the OKW P4 (armor) + T34/85 (HP) + Sherman (HE + smoke) in one and the mobility decrease is barely noticable. Take one of these things away and the upgrade would be fine.

Currently it shuts down Ostheer play, because T3 tanks aren't that good versus the dozer Shermans durability, while teching T4 Panther leaves you lacking in the AI department.

10 Mar 2020, 01:23 AM
#5
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2810

I would remove the smoke cannisters.
10 Mar 2020, 01:59 AM
#6
avatar of mrgame2

Posts: 1150

Just increase cost of upgrade, make total cost like premium med cost. The performance is fair spot for a doctrine unit!
10 Mar 2020, 08:21 AM
#7
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3222

I would remove the smoke cannisters.


Remove the whole thing. It's got the benefits of all the other doctrinal Shermans in one package. It shouldn't exist.
10 Mar 2020, 09:12 AM
#8
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2138 | Subs: 1

Just make it a bit more expensive. Other than that it's fine. It was crazy OP when the WP round had the regular range and it could just force AT-guns away constantly.

10 Mar 2020, 09:47 AM
#9
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2138 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Mar 2020, 08:21 AMLago


Remove the whole thing. It's got the benefits of all the other doctrinal Shermans in one package. It shouldn't exist.


???

76 Sherman ---> More penetration, fast rate of fire with vet

EZ-8 ---> "premium medium" with 720 HP, good armour and penetration

Dozer-Sherman---> trades mobility for HP and armour

10 Mar 2020, 10:06 AM
#10
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3222

???

76 Sherman ---> More penetration, fast rate of fire with vet

EZ-8 ---> "premium medium" with 720 HP, good armour and penetration

Dozer-Sherman---> trades mobility for HP and armour


The 76mm, E8 and Dozer Attachment Sherman all fall into the premium medium range: they beat P4s and lose to Panthers.

The Easy Eight and 76mm sacrifice their HE shells for this, and therefore coexist nicely with the stock Sherman.

The Dozer Attachment does not. It's like one of the crazy suggestions you get from the faction fanboys, except it actually got into the game.
10 Mar 2020, 10:57 AM
#11
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2138 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Mar 2020, 10:06 AMLago


The 76mm, E8 and Dozer Attachment Sherman all fall into the premium medium range: they beat P4s and lose to Panthers.

The Easy Eight and 76mm sacrifice their HE shells for this, and therefore coexist nicely with the stock Sherman.

The Dozer Attachment does not. It's like one of the crazy suggestions you get from the faction fanboys, except it actually got into the game.


I am usually quick to call for USF nerfs because the faction has plenty of OP stuff at the moment but the Dozer Sherman is fine after the WP round nerf. Never found it to be problematic. They still can't reliably pen OKW P4s or Ostheer vet 2 P4s and the extra armour doesn't really help against Panthers and AT-guns at all. And because they are slower than regular Shermans I'd say the survivability is only really better against P4s because getting out of AT-gun range or escaping from a Panther is not really less valuable than surviving one extra shot.

It's also not really true to say the 76mm and Dozer Sherman beat OKW P4s. Against the OKW P4 it's a pure RNG fest because of the high armour of the OKW P4. They have a clear edge over the Ostheer P4 but that's about it.

If possible just give the Dozer Sherman a bigger target size than the regular Shermans. That would make a lot of sense.
10 Mar 2020, 11:01 AM
#12
avatar of Fire and Terror

Posts: 224

the upgrate is fine, just increase its target size back to 23.

10 Mar 2020, 12:04 PM
#13
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3222

It's also not really true to say the 76mm and Dozer Sherman beat OKW P4s. Against the OKW P4 it's a pure RNG fest because of the high armour of the OKW P4. They have a clear edge over the Ostheer P4 but that's about it.

If possible just give the Dozer Sherman a bigger target size than the regular Shermans. That would make a lot of sense.


Or replace it completely with the 105mm bulldozer.

That'd be way better.
10 Mar 2020, 13:57 PM
#14
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 4105 | Subs: 1

I'd just decrease the speed a bit more. I like the ability and don't feel it overshadows anything but the underperfoming 105.
10 Mar 2020, 14:28 PM
#15
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 820

It's not got the effectiveness of a t34/85 at all.

With the lackluster pen and slow speed to really catch anything it's your own fault if you're somehow losing anything more than a unskirted P4 to it.

Catch him when he's on HE and the tank is dead meat unlike other premiums
10 Mar 2020, 14:31 PM
#16
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2810

It's not got the effectiveness of a t34/85 at all.

With the lackluster pen and slow speed to really catch anything it's your own fault if you're somehow losing anything more than a unskirted P4 to it.

Catch him when he's on HE and the tank is dead meat unlike other premiums


Perfectly said, when’t this pathetic upgrade getting a 60 pen buff and extra 500HP?
10 Mar 2020, 14:31 PM
#17
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8574 | Subs: 1



I am usually quick to call for USF nerfs because the faction has plenty of OP stuff at the moment but the Dozer Sherman is fine after the WP round nerf. Never found it to be problematic. They still can't reliably pen OKW P4s or Ostheer vet 2 P4s and the extra armour doesn't really help against Panthers and AT-guns at all. And because they are slower than regular Shermans I'd say the survivability is only really better against P4s because getting out of AT-gun range or escaping from a Panther is not really less valuable than surviving one extra shot.

It's also not really true to say the 76mm and Dozer Sherman beat OKW P4s. Against the OKW P4 it's a pure RNG fest because of the high armour of the OKW P4. They have a clear edge over the Ostheer P4 but that's about it.

If possible just give the Dozer Sherman a bigger target size than the regular Shermans. That would make a lot of sense.

The ability comes:
Bundled with Sherman 76 or bundled with WP shell
it makes the Sherman have an equally good if not better AT gun a superior AI gun
provides heavy crush
allow the unit to create barriers
make the Sherman more durable than PzIV
is provided as an upgrade and not as separate unit and thus doe snot delay the Sherman itself
Draw back Reduces speed and rotation by 15% and 5% respectively

Both abilities are simply superior to the Ostheer PzIV J ability.

In addition it allows the USF to continue to have an advantage (after having in infatry stage, LV stake) in medium tank stage of the game.

It overlap with Dozer 105mm heavily that does not really have allot more to offer.

The reason very little reason for this upgrade to exist.
10 Mar 2020, 14:33 PM
#18
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2810

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Mar 2020, 14:31 PMVipper
The reason very little reason for this upgrade to exist.


10 Mar 2020, 14:39 PM
#19
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 820

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Mar 2020, 14:31 PMVipper

The ability comes:
Bundled with Sherman 76 or bundled with WP shell
it makes the Sherman have an equally good if not better AT gun a superior AI gun
provides heavy crush
allow the unit to create barriers
make the Sherman more durable than PzIV
is provided as an upgrade and not as separate unit and thus doe snot delay the Sherman itself
Draw back Reduces speed and rotation by 15% and 5% respectively

Both abilities are simply superior to the Ostheer PzIV J ability.

In addition it allows the USF to continue to have an advantage (after having in infatry stage, LV stake) in medium tank stage of the game.

It overlap with Dozer 105mm heavily that does not really have allot more to offer.

The reason very little reason for this upgrade to exist.


I mean unlike the ost p4 j the doctrine doesn't have a heavy tank sitting at the end.

I mean you could list the ost P4j advantages too over the dozer but that just wouldn't be an authentic vipper post would it.
10 Mar 2020, 15:04 PM
#20
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3222

I mean unlike the ost p4 j the doctrine doesn't have a heavy tank sitting at the end.

I mean you could list the ost P4j advantages too over the dozer but that just wouldn't be an authentic vipper post would it.


The OST P4J is just a clone of the OKW P4. You delay your P4 a bit and get better armour and scatter at Vet 0. The OKW P4 still beats the same units the OST one does, it just beats them a bit harder.

The 75mm Sherman is the best medium tank in the game, and that's because of its HE shells. It can freely toggle between being a generalist medium and an anti-infantry specialist.

There's a good reason the Easy Eight and 76mm don't get these, and it's the same reason the Panzer IV has better anti-infantry performance than the Panther: it gives you a reason to build both.

So it baffles me why they added an upgrade package that gives the 75mm Sherman the armour and health of a premium medium. The Sherman 75 Bulldozer beats and loses to the same units as the 76mm and Easy Eight, but it does so without giving up its anti-infantry firepower or the basic Sherman's shock timing.

Why did they look at all the Sherman variants and figure "hey, look at all these tanks with their own advantages and disadvantages, let's make one with all the advantages!" This thing only exists because they realised they could stick a dozer on a 75 with an upgrade and wanted to do it.

Strip this ill-convinced upgrade back out of the game. Put the E8 or 105 in its place in Urban Assault. Mechanized is fine with the 76mm.
1 user is browsing this thread: 1 guest

Ladders Top 10

  • #
    Steam Alias
    W
    L
    %
    Streak
Data provided by Relic Relic Entertainment

Replay highlight

VS
  • Ostheer flag Reto.GarGamel
  • The British Forces flag °NOOBMarkov.-
uploaded by Augustine

Board Info

258 users are online: 11 members and 247 guests
Pervitin Addict, Farlion, Major Shentypoo, Stormjäger, miragefla, Panther, SkysTheLimit, Sir Edgelord, KoRneY, Jadek, eom1
58 posts in the last 24h
701 posts in the last week
3917 posts in the last month
Registered members: 24924
Welcome our newest member, eom1
Most online: 1221 users on 25 Feb 2020, 12:03 PM