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russian armor

Ditch the Sherman Dozer Attachment

10 Mar 2020, 15:04 PM
#21
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8574 | Subs: 1


I mean unlike the ost p4 j the doctrine doesn't have a heavy tank sitting at the end.

I compared abilities not commanders and is you actually read my feedback on Strategic Reserves Doctrine commander you will see that I was suggested against combining a "premium medium" and a "super heavy".

Even so the commander is not actually that popular and was picked only 3 times in world Championship.

On the other hand mechanized that has access to the dozer upgrade was picked 20 times and was the second most popular commander.


I mean you could list the ost P4j advantages too over the dozer but that just wouldn't be an authentic vipper post would it.

I will leave that list for you make, since it will probably be sort.

Now wouldn't you be allot more constructive if you focused on Dozer upgrade instead of me?
10 Mar 2020, 16:04 PM
#22
avatar of EtherealDragon

Posts: 1535 | Subs: 1

Personally I'm not a fan of the dozer blade upgrade due to the speed reduction but I think it's fair that the upgrade also increases the target size to match the Armor Company Bulldozer Sherman size since it's functionally the same tank.
10 Mar 2020, 16:33 PM
#23
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3222

Personally I'm not a fan of the dozer blade upgrade due to the speed reduction but I think it's fair that the upgrade also increases the target size to match the Armor Company Bulldozer Sherman size since it's functionally the same tank.


It's functionally the same tank, except it gives up none of the anti-tank or shock timing of the Sherman 75.
10 Mar 2020, 17:03 PM
#24
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 820

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Mar 2020, 15:04 PMLago


The OST P4J is just a clone of the OKW P4. You delay your P4 a bit and get better armour and scatter at Vet 0. The OKW P4 still beats the same units the OST one does, it just beats them a bit harder.

The 75mm Sherman is the best medium tank in the game, and that's because of its HE shells. It can freely toggle between being a generalist medium and an anti-infantry specialist.

There's a good reason the Easy Eight and 76mm don't get these, and it's the same reason the Panzer IV has better anti-infantry performance than the Panther: it gives you a reason to build both.

So it baffles me why they added an upgrade package that gives the 75mm Sherman the armour and health of a premium medium. The Sherman 75 Bulldozer beats and loses to the same units as the 76mm and Easy Eight, but it does so without giving up its anti-infantry firepower or the basic Sherman's shock timing.

Why did they look at all the Sherman variants and figure "hey, look at all these tanks with their own advantages and disadvantages, let's make one with all the advantages!" This thing only exists because they realised they could stick a dozer on a 75 with an upgrade and wanted to do it.

Strip this ill-convinced upgrade back out of the game. Put the E8 or 105 in its place in Urban Assault. Mechanized is fine with the 76mm.


I disagree, even if I agreed the upgrade was OP I don't think stripping units and abilities people paid for out of the game is beneficial at all. For instance as much as I dislike emplacements I don't want them deleted, just reworked.

Now to the dozer if it was a straight up "nobrainer" upgrade you would have a point.

But the reality is you're trading mobility on an already slow medium for extra survivability.So there is a trade off and decision making involved outside of the resource cost.

You basically can't flank with a bulldozer like you can with other mediums and this makes it more vulnerable to Jagdpanzer or stug compared to premium meds. Both of which pen it with ease even with the token armor buff.

The Soviet 85 can also be fielded at similar timing and is a markedly better tank. So for me there's not much issue. The dozer was judged to be OP on release and was balanced to its current state. It's already been "fixed".




10 Mar 2020, 17:11 PM
#25
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3222

I disagree, even if I agreed the upgrade was OP I don't think stripping units and abilities people paid for out of the game is beneficial at all. For instance as much as I dislike emplacements I don't want them deleted, just reworked.


Do you think CoH 2 should be replaced by All Units Mod?

Because that's where 'remove nothing' leads.

Some abilities are bad designs, some patching decisions are mistakes.

Making a better game requires being prepared to recognise those mistakes.
10 Mar 2020, 17:18 PM
#26
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2810

But the reality is you're trading mobility on an already slow medium for extra survivability.So there is a trade off


This is veru true, I too marvel at how slow Bulldozer Shermans are. Very fair indeed.
10 Mar 2020, 17:30 PM
#27
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 820

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Mar 2020, 15:04 PMVipper

I compared abilities not commanders and is you actually read my feedback on Strategic Reserves Doctrine commander you will see that I was suggested against combining a "premium medium" and a "super heavy".

Even so the commander is not actually that popular and was picked only 3 times in world Championship.

On the other hand mechanized that has access to the dozer upgrade was picked 20 times and was the second most popular commander.


I will leave that list for you make, since it will probably be sort.

Now wouldn't you be allot more constructive if you focused on Dozer upgrade instead of me?

So it was used 20 times the whole tournament? Impressive, but the thing is vipper a random number like that is pointless without context. I could point out more (balanced) t34/85s than dozers were built as a rebuttal but without context on games, number of dozers per game, game length, players involved blah blah both my t34 numbers and your dozer number mean very little.

There were also upgunned Sherman's built in favor of just simply spamming dozers which would also say something about this supposedly broken unit that needs to be deleted so badly. If it's so OP then why in many games did players build 76s instead? Maybe because it lacks something premium meds can provide... Like penetration or mobility hmmmm

It's almost as if this tank has trade offs compared to other premiums.
10 Mar 2020, 17:33 PM
#28
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 820

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Mar 2020, 17:11 PMLago


Do you think CoH 2 should be replaced by All Units Mod?

Because that's where 'remove nothing' leads.

Some abilities are bad designs, some patching decisions are mistakes.

Making a better game requires being prepared to recognise those mistakes.


Have all the units in "all units mod" been present in commanders people have paid real money for?

Unfortunately complaining about a tank you don't like playing against doesn't give you the right to delete units customers paid for.
10 Mar 2020, 17:50 PM
#29
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8574 | Subs: 1


So it was used 20 times the whole tournament? Impressive, but the thing is vipper a random number like that is pointless without context. I could point out more (balanced) t34/85s than dozers were built as a rebuttal but without context on games, number of dozers per game, game length, players involved blah blah both my t34 numbers and your dozer number mean very little.

I already told you that mechanized was the second most popular commander, I am not sure how much more context you need.

I also do not understand where you got the idea that I have to provide to you they stat you want. You can find them yourself very easily.


There were also upgunned Sherman's built in favor of just simply spamming dozers which would also say something about this supposedly broken unit that needs to be deleted so badly. If it's so OP then why in many games did players build 76s instead? Maybe because it lacks something premium meds can provide... Like penetration or mobility hmmmm

It's almost as if this tank has trade offs compared to other premiums.

I have already explained why imo the abilities that allow the dozer upgrade are bad both from balance and from design point of view. It seem you are no convinced and that is fine by me. You more than welcomed to have a different opinion than me.

10 Mar 2020, 17:53 PM
#30
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8574 | Subs: 1



Have all the units in "all units mod" been present in commanders people have paid real money for?

Unfortunately complaining about a tank you don't like playing against doesn't give you the right to delete units customers paid for.

The dozer upgrade was not part of any commander customer paid money for.

Even it was there a number of abilities that where removed from commanders people paid money for.

You argument simply holds no water.
10 Mar 2020, 19:21 PM
#31
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3222

Have all the units in "all units mod" been present in commanders people have paid real money for?

Unfortunately complaining about a tank you don't like playing against doesn't give you the right to delete units customers paid for.


Tell me, where's the Withdraw and Refit ability I paid for?
10 Mar 2020, 19:28 PM
#32
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 2480 | Subs: 1



Have all the units in "all units mod" been present in commanders people have paid real money for?

Unfortunately complaining about a tank you don't like playing against doesn't give you the right to delete units customers paid for.


Customers paid for Windustry and Elite Troops. Didn't prevent them from being nerfed straight to hell

Also correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds like you're arguing in favor of a pay-to-win model?
10 Mar 2020, 19:36 PM
#33
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 211 | Subs: 1



Customers paid for Windustry and Elite Troops. Didn't prevent them from being nerfed straight to hell

Also correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds like you're arguing in favor of a pay-to-win model?

I am still mad about Rifle Company and the guy who complained in a 1v1 that ISGs won the game, despite using vet 1 rifle-flamers and losing all his EZ8s to my AT.

Elite Armor was a let-down from the start sadly.....[Support Armour] in another language was/is much better a title. At least the repair now does 300hp instead of the token 100 or so hp.
10 Mar 2020, 19:37 PM
#34
avatar of Jilet

Posts: 400

The problem is dozer upgrade comes with rangers.Zook rangers nuke the tanks while dozer sherman wipe the floor with infantryç
11 Mar 2020, 15:25 PM
#35
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 820

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Mar 2020, 19:21 PMLago


Tell me, where's the Withdraw and Refit ability I paid for?


Is that a unit? No it's not.

Nice backtracking

I guess you feel we should delete the tiger from every doctrine because it was completely broken last patch? This is your logic.
11 Mar 2020, 15:27 PM
#36
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 820



Customers paid for Windustry and Elite Troops. Didn't prevent them from being nerfed straight to hell

Also correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds like you're arguing in favor of a pay-to-win model?


That's a great strawman you're attacking but I'll just leave you to fighting points I never made.

BTW the tiger ace is still in the game.

It was just you know rebalanced with stats rather than clicking the delete button if something was over performing.
11 Mar 2020, 16:46 PM
#37
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3222

Is that a unit? No it's not.

Nice backtracking

I guess you feel we should delete the tiger from every doctrine because it was completely broken last patch? This is your logic.


The 75mm Sherman bulldozer isn't a unit either. It's an upgrade for a unit. And if those count, where are the Penal Trooper flamers I paid for?


If premium Shermans having HE is fine, then the Easy Eight and 76mm should get it too. Anyone who suggests this as a serious option belongs on the Steam Forums.

If premium Shermans having HE is not fine, then the 75mm Bulldozer shouldn't have it.
11 Mar 2020, 17:34 PM
#38
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 2480 | Subs: 1


That's a great strawman you're attacking but I'll just leave you to fighting points I never made.


Then what is your point? Everyone paid money for the base-game too...


BTW the tiger ace is still in the game.

It was just you know rebalanced with stats rather than clicking the delete button if something was over performing.


Just ignoring troop training? They deleted it straight from the game, no rebalance, straight up removed...
11 Mar 2020, 17:38 PM
#39
avatar of Stormjäger

Posts: 2810

I bought Tank Hunter tactics and the doctrine got neutered and salvage was straight up removed. Where’s my refund?
11 Mar 2020, 17:59 PM
#40
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3222

I bought Tank Hunter tactics and the doctrine got neutered and salvage was straight up removed. Where’s my refund?


Don't forget the Assault Engineers we all bought Mechanized for.
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