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that they have snares, and the fact that mines (that were not part of the discussion) don't snares don't make them worse at snaring vehicles
both side have equal tools, and the smoke nades even slow tanks for usf (Enemy vehicle will have 0 sight and -50% speed for 8 seconds. This will last even when the vehicle backs out of the smoke.)
Yes, I do agree with you on that, but I also never said that USF did not have snares. I even said they had the best options apart from Soviet cons.
But I think mines should be a part of the discussion as well. Snares are there that your units can not get overrun by enemy tanks so that your AT gun and TDs can finish the enemy tank off. Mines do the same stuff, more unreliably but do not require as much micro after placement. So the availability of mines to a faction does have an influence on the interaction with enemy tanks (extreme example: a faction that could place engine-critting mines for 5-10 mun might seriously not need a infantry based snare, since it could just spam mines across the whole map).
Does USF smoke really slow vehicles? I did not know that. But this is only the case for USF, isn't it? |
mmmhhh do u play the game or only usf ? ukf okw and soviet miens are all the same they all deal the same damage and snare..... only usf has light mines but they have other tools and the doc mines, btw cons are better in my opinion for snare but rifle man get zook with snare
I don't get your point. This is is exactly what I wrote.
Cons are better to snare (I also already wrote this is my post), but Soviet builds usually favor T1 even despite the current patch so you often don't face cons. Riflemen, hated or not, are still the backbone for most USF builds (and I know that there are viable assault pio and pathfinder builds). In a normal game, you have (as I already wrote) 3-4 Riflemen out, which are apart from a Soviet con build more units with snare than any other normal Allied build.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say, since basically I already covered most of what you commented on. Please elaborate on that. |
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Regardless of balance implications etc, to say that Allies have more snares than Axis is either misleading or just plain wrong. What counts is not the number of different unit types that can snare, but the number of units that is on the field at a given time. Technically, UKF always had a infantry available snare (sniper), but this is not equal to 4 Volks running around the field with a faust.
Axis usually have better snare availability since their mainline can use snares after normal teching (Volks) or from the get go (Grenadiers). There is only one viable Ostheer build where you don't have snares, and that is Assault Grenadiere into Panzergrenadiere. In a normal game (at least at my skill level), there are 4-5 Volks or 3-4 Grenadiere running around for the whole match.
Allies have a more limited snare availability. Only standard USF and Soviet T2 Conscript builds after vet/side-tech have widely avaiable snares with about 3-4 Riflemen/Cons. Soviet T1 build usually don't have that many upgraded Penal squads (I'd say 1-2 from what I have seen, as you usually try to avoid upgrading your Penals. Also, you trade range for damage which can give high rewards, but also enables the Axis tanks to move more freely), UKF for the most part have 1-2 engineer squads on the field. Only cons can generate a very high snare-threat in combination with Ooohra.
Additionally, both Axis factions have access to engine-critting mines. USF, the Allied faction with the best snare availability, has only light mines that don't crit the engine.
So all in all, Axis have the better toolbox(es) to snare a vehicle. If this might be necessary or not due to a usually more aggressive LV play by Allies is actually the more important point, not how many different types of units could theoretically snare or not. |
I don't think that decreased cost of barrage make it popular. Problem as always in overall effectivness of unit. If you make barrage more user friendly (more accurate or more AOE) it could screw german infantry due to wipes and i don't think that this will be good in terms of balance and gameplay. SU-76 became a prey of soviet design - it trying to become good in any role, but fail, due to bad stats and more better units (Zis). It also don't have any chances in lategame - it means that it place in early-midgame, but as i previous said, these timeframes of games too short and SU-76 can't fit to it.
I recently saw Skippy game, where his team try to did heavy SU-76 spam - against 1 p4, 2-3 su-76 works, but when p4 2 or 3 or panther (or any another heavy) came to field, they light is off. While barrage quite effective vs blobs, SU-76 leaded to very later T4. And as result game was lost, because map pressure was lost and loses of su-76 leaded to huge fuel drain.
It's squishy enough, if we make it more fragile, how you supposed to play and what compensated this? In game only rocket artillery very fragile, but it's compensated very strong abilities to wipe enemy infantry and team weapons [...]
While rework would be an option, I think it's too late for COH2 to basically get a complete new non doc unit. Su76 will stay a light TD for the life cycle of the game.
The SU76 was quite OP as it performed well in AT and AI due to the barrage. Looking at thr stats, AT is still fine vs Ostheer, while its insufficient vs OKW. Can't do nuch about that unfortunately. But since the Su76 does not scale well into the late game anymore, ZiS is the better option. 75 FU for something scaling that badly isjust not worth it. So I assume it's best to make its AI and utility worth using it again. |
Su-76 barrage gets a 25% damage (iirc) increase is vet 2 and almost double the range buff of the zis at vet 3.
If you are asking about the TWP:
Pak: +900% penetration for 10 seconds. Hits disable weapons and movement for 5 seconds
Stug G: +100% penetration, will lock enemy vehicles turret temporarily and disable its main gun.
Su-76 is a very viable option against T3 unit but since T3 in many cases is not a viable option for Ostheer there is little reason to built SU-76.
The unit if performing fine for cost and is effective against it T3 units.
Well, then I think the barrages are still comparable since the functionality is not changed (barrage vs conditionally better barrage, while TWPs are timed snare vs negate offensive capabilities).
But these are very minor points, let's refocus.
However, the OST P4 was always a good tank in the last versions, Ostwind now has been patched back into the meta and it seems that also StuG has finally found a place, at least I've seen people building them every now and then quite effectively. I still see basically no one go SU76s when I play Axis. The problem is that it is only good vs OST in general and complete shite against OKW, since the OKW P4 leans heavily towards the premium tanks armorwise, so the SU76 ist unreliable. And against OST you're probably better off using a ZiS, since a freaking Ostwind can inflict sufficient damage (25% combined hit and pen chance at range 40) to your SU76 if caught even slightly offguard.
I think the AT capability of the SU76 is just not worth getting it due to better options. Buffing accuracy or pen on the other hand might screw Ostheer. If we want SU76 back in the meta (which it is not currently, as no one builds it), we should give back some utility. 20 mun barrage, as I said multiple times, is my suggestion. |
Su-76 barrage becomes superior to that of Zis with veterancy.
In addition comparing the Zis with Su-76 barrage is rather misleading. Its like claiming that pak has better TWP and that makes Stug redundant and thus Stug should be buffed.
Su-76 is a cost efficient unit that is better option if one choose not built T2.
Could you lease elaborateon your second point? Visually, they do pretty much the same, so I never thought about it if there were any drastic stat differences, since in game they behaved similar.
What are the differences between the two abilities?
The thing is that the SU67 is not a very viable option at the moment. It's not horrible, but there is little reason to build it due to other options. And since the other options are not deemed OP, SU67 could be overprized/underperforming.
The stuG was also not a horrible unit stat wise. The problem was that Allied TDs countered it heavily, so Ostheer usually relied on its PaK as it is more cost efficient.
The Su76 is by no means the most glaring problem of the game, but if there is interest to discuss it, why not. So we need to fiddle with small adjustments |
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Whoops, then I had the wrong numbers on that one. My mistake. |
well centaur has 50 more armor and have 0 accuracy problem on the move for LV
they have about the same combat stats, with the Cromwell scarifying armor for speed and being better at mid and near range
ff is just as effective without muni sink, it has 200 damage not 160, for medium tanks is not that much unless us use any snare as at that point it becomes a 3 shoot unit (isntaed of 4) but from panther and bigger is around 1-2 less shoot needed to kill a tank
panther has lower armor for more hp, that's it, the pen is - 50 at all ranges but it still hit infantry, tho it comes with 45 range instead of 50 (but is fair cause it's only for at), btw the better ai is a meme it will beat panther AI in all but open road where infantry models are 4 meters from each other (an unlikely scenario these days)
well u are right, that's why u play 230 fu for tiger and is doctrinal, did u expect to be worse or the same as comet ?? 
FF has 160 up to vet 3, then it has 200 damage. So a medium tank will still be 4 shots, but at vet 3 you gain the possibility to kill the enemy with a snare. "3 shotting" is only possible if you upgrade with Tulips, then you need two shots and both tulips to hit.
EDIT: Wrong numbers, FF does 200 standard damage; thanks Shadowlink
I think the "Comet has bad AI" stems from its unreliability. When it hits, it can hit quite big and wipe 2 models with ease. But from my game experiences it misses very often and hits nothing at all, which is very frustrating for a not very cheap tank. To be honest, these are ingame observations, I don't have the scatter and AOE values at hand at the moment. |
Comes out fast, I personally use it vs mg to makes infantry come in suppressed or to run away as it comes out very fast and last long
Someone ballsy even use it on reverse to avoid at gun fire
Honestly on retreat is the only way I ever used it. Mainly because I forget that it exists when I attack. I just use it as a panic button when I've already given up on my Churchill |
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