1. Panthers need too much time to inflict enough dmg to make it back off. They are hard countered by at units including tanks (firefly/jackson/su85) and have to back off much more quickly. Basically the hard counter to panther dmages it more quickly than the panther dmgs churchill (in proportion to its health pool).
2. With brit arty options and infantry sections you won't have that much time.
3. High health pool plus fast repairs give it too much power as it will come back fighting more quickly than more fragile azis tanks.
Option: Just make it more expensive, say similar price to a panther.
1. Thank you for confirming Katitof's and my point. The Panther is NOT THE MOST COST EFFICIENT COUNTER. It will fight it back, but take quite some time, that's what we said and why we suggested StuGs or whatever. You're complaining about a unit that is not perfectly suited for a certain situation to be not perfectly suited for said situation. Whats your point? Also, if your Panther gets immediately (at the beginning of the fight) countered by enemy TDs, you should work on your unit and frontline spacing. Panthers are not the first unit your enemy should see. With almost the same logic, I could say that Allies can't counter the heavier Axis tanks, since the TDs that I park in front of my troups get shredded first and after that I (obviously) don't have that potent AT anymore. A Churchill is a beefy unit, you need to adapt by falling back in a controlled fashing -> elastic defense.
Btw, if your enemy has Churchill and Firefly, you should have a Panther and a JP4/Tiger+Stug+some fuel left. And since we apparently can generate situations as we wish to support our arguments: JP4 counters firefly, Panther counters Churchill -> EzPz win.
2. That's a completely new point. Please elaborate how IS sections and artillery hinder your Panther to shoot at the Churchill.
3. OKW can power repair as well with upgraded Sturmpios and the Mechanized HQ. Just OST is slightly on the weak side repairwise. Always has been. But then again for 35 mun you can always stun the Churchill with your PaK to get another salvo of free rounds into it. That ability is vet1 but non-doc. And you gain 5 muni compared to your enemy.
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I would like to see a hold fire button added to all HMGs that has the dual functionality that as soon as they are placed on hold fire, they automatically begin a reload cycle. I know some players are clamoring for a manual reload feature so they don’t end up shooting a short burst at a critical point followed by an unavoidable reload. If you go to the bother to add a hold fire button, then you could also give it the dual feature of making the gun reload. Two birds with one stone.
That actually sounds like a very good idea.
Tbh, OST probably needs it the most, since the early game heavily relies on Grenadier/MG42 interplay and mutual coverage more than any other faction. But there's no reason not to give it to all MGs. |
And here we agree. The panther is not but is should be a hard counter to stuff like churchill (with support of course). BTW the whole combined arms are not the answer. Chrchill simply is OP. Brits have too easy life with this unit. I can't believe how ppl can even suggest churchill is too weak. Remember the game is about pushing you off the VPs. Axis can't be constantly moving away from churchills and fireflies kiting them.
Solution options:
1. Give panthers some munition paid tungsten rounds;
2. Give some axis units satchels to deal some decent damage when chrchill just overextends;
3. Increase the munition cost of those OP abilities such as grenades and smoke repairs. It should be emergency repairs not making sappers do other jobs instead of repairs (lots of players combine both sappers and smoke and repair them too fast).
Panthers ARE ahard counter to Churchills. Panthers pen with 92% change while only being penned with 44% (and at range 40 they'd pen close to 100%). If every Churchill shot hits, a Churchill still needs 15 shots while the Panther needs only 10 shots on average (both pen corrected). Panthers are just not the most cost effective unit to use, StuGs are better for that purpose.
Other points:
1. Why? They fare well against all Allied heavies except maybe the IS-2. There's no need for an "Panther will always pen with 100%"-button. Also, since you mention doctrinal abilities in point 3: Panther already has access to HEAT rounds.
2. Axis have very cost efficient TDs for the Churchill. Faust it and you can shoot at it for almost an eternity
3. Grenade cost is absolutely standard and has short range. Smoke repairs is fairly priced. Brit players send additional sappers to a heavily damaged Churchill since the smoke repair only repairs half of the Churchill's health. |
You can check the scatter mechanics here:
https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/231279/a-guide-to-d-p-s-basics#latest
What make scatter calculation difficult is the target's "hitbox" and the angle the shot is fired from.
Bottom line here is the a Churchill will clearly beat a Stug -G at range 40.
I did already know your guide, but thanks nevertheless.
The point it does not cover (and that was also the point of question in my post) is how the shots are distributed in the possible scatter area. Basically how the program picks the randomized values. |
It surprised me too.
I guess it's partly because the Churchill has decent scatter. I forgot how it works exactly, but the Churchill's vertical scatter is 6, while most generalist tanks have around 6,5-7,5. Besides that it has a scatter offset of 0,3, which means the scatter area is displaced 30% further, while most generalist tanks have a scatter offset of only 0,25.
It also depends how the scatter values are calculated, so basically if the game just takes a random number in between the scatter boundaries (so each spot in the possible scatter area gets hit with equal probability) or if there is a normalized distribution around the center. We (or at least I) don't know enough about scatter to be able to calculate it |
It's more than somewhat flawed, to the point the results are close to useless.
In my ingame test the shots that hit & bounced the Stug were 30,88%, which is reasonably close to the 29,17% the Churchill statistically has to bounce it. -> Good!
Meanwhile, 15% of the ingame shots missed, which is far better than the 57,5% chance to miss without accounting for scatter would suggest. -> Bad!
I think we can agree in this case my small sample size gives far more accurate results than comparing the two statistically while ignoring scatter as a factor.
Indeed, the good measurement accurary on the pen chances suggests that the real miss and scatter-hit chances are fairly accurate as well.
While the test will always work out in favor of the Churchill (since StuG always hits), I did not think that it would be that severe, especially since the StuGs model is not that big. |
You can't simply correct if for accuracy, because each shot that misses becomes a scatter shot which has a decent chance to hit (Churchill has slightly below average scatter). Best way to know the shots to kill is to let them face each other off sufficient times in cheatcommands on the test range map, making one of the two invincible each time.
I thibk it should be clear that the theoretical calculation does not account for scatter and is therefore somewhat flawed, but it is a way better and more comparable model thean just crying 'XYZ OP!'.
Testing is better if you have a sufficient sample size, and the theoretical calculation can give you an idea of how big your sample size needs to be to get reliable results. |
Why do u calc with the far range accu? Why not mid and near? this church istn buid for staying all the time at far range and wait to killed by stug. mostly it is easy to come in close range with it....unless you are not bad at playing.
What about you do the calculation yourself before you shitpost on stuff that you apparently don't know much about? It's not hard to do the math on that.
Also if a Churchill is able to overrun any of your tanks then maybe, just maybe, there are more serious problems problems than an assumingly OP Churchill. |
??? the stug needs 4 shoot to die and only has 140 armor the Churchill has 1400 hp that's 9 shoots and only if they all pen
btw it's not that vulnerable to snare thanks to its vet 3 and having such an absurd Health pool as the tank need be below 75% of it's health to get snared so 1050 (2 shells are need to pen before u can snare it)
Some clarification: 13 shots corrected for accuracy and pen chance at the units max range.
Stug only needs 4 shots to die, but Churchill has horrible accuracy against a Stug and will miss at least half of its shots, while Stug will always hit the Churchill.
This leads, due to the Churchills unique design, to the funny situation that the most cost effective counter to the Churchill heavy tank is the lighter version of the tank destroyers.the Churchills design makes it a breakthrough unit that is meant to drive almost literally into the enemy defense where it has a high risk the get overrun by snare-infantry.
To the general discussion:
I think the price of the first Churchill is fine (you basically buy the side tech for the Churchill and sappers that are desperately needed if you have to repair a Churchill), but the tank might be too easily replacable. Just a thought. |
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The thing is that the Churchill is hard to compare, as there is no other unit in the game that has the same concept. The Churchill is not a very potent fighter, its just made to soak so much damage until it gets so close that you NEED to deal with it.
On the other hand, it's super vulnerable to snares, as it can't really run away from enemy infantry and does not pack the firepower to deter an enemy squad before they can snare. And then it's just a sitting duck with speed slightly above a recrewed abandoned tank.
Compared to the Cromwell, you trade 150 MP, 50 FU and rate of fire (plus partial side-tech cost) for a shit ton health and decent armor.
But to be fair, a StuGIII can pen the Churchill with 70% chance at range 50, they both need on average 13 shots to kill each other. So StuGs and also JP4s are very decent counters if you're able to set up an elastic defense. |
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