back to the topic, would a lot change if the Jackson would receive a slight armor nerf? Hannibal so basically p4 bouncing shots < puma to strong vs Jackson?
Not sure what you want to say with that. But keep in mind that we are still talking about reliable penetration. P4 has a 84-96% pen chance against the Jackson, so bouncing a shot is more bad luck once in a while. That still a 50% chance to pen 4/4 shots at max range and a 65% chance to pen 4/4 at mid range. We are talking about the same pen chances which people use to argue that the Panther were shite and needs an armor buff because a dedicated tank destroyer will pen with 85-90% chance (at vet 0).
Just to put this into perspective. Shadow posted the values, but apparently no one thought much about what they actually mean.
and if your fighting pumas sherman pak and bazookas arent valid options? (once heavy meta is fixed once and for all)
Of course they are valid. But as I said, Puma needs 13 secs if it's lucky. That's the only issue I see. That's why my point so far is that the best approach is to probably get ~10 armor off the Jackson. That gives P4 more than enough chance to pen next to every shot while Puma will probably not cause much issues. |
To be fair, Puma hits sh*t on the move and Jackson has more range. What is that scenario? If Puma killes Jackson the OKw pöayer was simply the better player using hotkeys for acc. and timing/tactic for the hunt.
Back to StuG. My version could also be nerfed, the factor is simply the 60 range mark you need to balance everything over 1vs1, because micro-investing is simply way worse for Ostheer than e.g. Alliis. So needed skill for fractions become fair.
Don't know about the moving accuracy of the Jackson. Is it 0,75 like the Sherman?
Apart from that, Puma could miss one shot and even then killing times are equal. If the Jackson misses a hit, it would probably be a dead Jackson since the Puma gets two shots in between.
I also just calculated that the Puma has a decent chance against a Jackson that got hit only once which happens frequently in a battle. Also the range difference is 10, and since during an assault there might be valuable targets than a Puma and given Pumas top speed of 7,2 this should take only 2 seconds to bridge if you assault a standing Jackson.
I'm not saying that a Puma can solo a Jackson, but it could solo a Jackson that got hit only once, especially since it profits more from it's vet in this setup. And I this could lead to an unfair advantage.
Puma already has a role. Rather make JP4 great again. |
Everyone please be aware of the stats you're posting. I've seen multiple people say it takes 2 shots to kill a puma. The puma has 400 HP and the jackson now deals 160 damage per shot making it a 3 shot kill. HVAP, the jackson vet 1 ability can raise the damage to 200 which can make it a 2 shot kill. Hannibal I know you corrected this a previous post, thank you.
As someone previously posted, it takes 6 penetrating hits to kill a jackson, not 4. 4 would've been from the old jackson HP value of 480. The jackson now has 640 HP.
He might've been talking with the Vet3 bonus of Puma in mind. In which case, Puma has 160 damage and can kill Jackson with 4 shots. Considering the difference between Jackson and Puma timings, it's realistic to assume Puma will be Vet3 before Jackson comes.
The scenario I was describing is that the Jackson got hit once during a fight, which happens very frequently, and then OKW dives a Puma to kill it. I see that the second time I wrote "Jackson got one hit", which was meant as "received one hit" and is a bit ambiguously phrased.
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EDIT2:
First version said Jackson had ö sec reload due to miscalculation it's actually ~7
This lower TTK for Puma to 14 and for Tiger to 28/21.
Okay so short test:
First off: Yes, Puma needs 3 shots.
Puma fires 10 shots in about 39 seconds at approximately 2/3 of it's max range (so 30-35 m, forgot to test on the range map). This means it has an effective reload speed of 4,33 seconds.
Jackson fires 10 shots in ~63 seconds at the same range, giving a reload of 9 seconds.
So in the scenario described above (Jackson got 1 hit, Puma dives) Jackson would need 3 shots = 14 seconds to kill the Puma, Puma needs 4 shots = 13 seconds to kill the Jackson assuming all shots hit (which is actually hard to calculate on the move). If the Jackson is still on reload at the beginning of the dive, it obviously takes a bit longer for the Jackson.
[EDIT2 although the argument is not as strong anymore, I still think the core is valid] This is what I was talking about in the beginning. The Puma seems to have a decent chance against a low armor Jackson. Combined with the smoke to break the auto targeting of the Jackson and potentially evade a snare during the dive this could become too common.
Comparing this to the similar setup I mentioned before (Jackson vs Tiger, also about double the fuel price):
Let's say the Tiger was already damaged by 2 shots, so it's down to 70% health which is about the same as if Jackson eats 1 shot. Jackson still needs 5 shots to kill the Tiger (4 if the Tiger got additionally snared), which would take 28(/21) seconds. Tiger would need 4 shots to kill the Jackson (don't know the time here). [EDIT2: argument also less string but the core is still valid] But the 28/21 secs alone give plenty of time to react for the Axis player. There's no smoke or something else to avoid a snare. In this scenario, your Tiger must have overextended heavily.
In the Jackson/Puma scenario? Honestly not that much. 13 seconds can be over quickly if your riflemen are not instantly in the perfect position to snare or your ATG is already on the target. Plus a good smoke could avoid a whole shot worth of damage.
Side note:
Timings obviously change with veterancy, although Jackson has an official reload time of 4,675 seconds while the wind up/down does not get affected by the vet. Puma has 3,85 reload time and thereby the majority of the time between shots will be affected by vet.
EDIT:
Tiger fires 10 shots in 48 seconds; reload = 5,33 seconds; time to kill full health Jackson = 16 seconds. |
Even then, if we assume a 100% hit rate combined with a 100% pen rate, it'll take the Puma six hits to destroy the M36, which will take around 23 seconds. Meanwhile the M36 can 2-shot the puma - meaning a single hit forces a retreat.
As I've heard this now twice in this thread:
I'm fairly sure that the Puma has 400 HP and can therefore take 3 shots (or 2 plus snare) from a Jackson.
I also think that the most likely scenario is that the Jackson already gets hit once by a ATG or other tank and that you dive and sacrifice a Puma for it. Then it would be 3 shots for the Jackson and 4 for the Puma.
I'm not 100% sure on exact reloading times since the Jackson also has wind up etc, will do a short test and report back. |
Infantry - Snares always engine crit
Light Vehicles - Puma reliably pens the M36
The Puma is not an OST unit.
Also I don't think that the infantry crit would help that much. It would help at the only occasion that you get into snare range on an undamaged unit that usually stays at range 60 and therefore behind enemy lines. If there was any fight beforehand so that infantry could close in during the chaos, the Jackson has probably already received damage and would be snarable anyway.
I mean it is a buff, but nothing that really helps OST. |
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Just to emphasize: I'm not saying 'Don't lower the Jacksons armor', I'm saying the best spot is likel between PIV reliably penetrating and Puma not reliably penetrating |
Is the Puma being a counter to the Jackson that bad an idea though?
The Jackson is the only tank destroyer in a faction who's AT is otherwise all geared towards killing lights (low pen ATG, low pen bazookas, pathetic pen Stuart).
If the Jackson needs a vehicular counter, what better vehicle than the one USF is best equipped to deal with without a Jackson?
Yes I actually do think that this is probably a bad idea.
I mean it's hard to tell how much a small armor change will effect a real game. For the time being we have to keep theorizing about it.
I think it's bad because
1. The Puma already has a role and is a very efficient unit on the battlefield. If OKW absolutely needs to counter the Jackson it can get a JPIV.
2. The cost difference is about double the cost of a Puma. It just seems very high considering the stun shot and smoke that could be cheesed to hell and back. I mean Jackson/Tiger have a similar cost disparity, but the Jackson can't be cheesed as much. On the other hand high skill should be rewarded of course. Again it's hard tp draw a final conclusion on this without seeing it implemented.
The Puma is just already worth it's price, I don't think it needs any indirect buffs that would on top of that marginalize a unit that was partially designed for that purpose even further. |
ost T4 dont need buff
just there is no reason to use T4
Tiger can do all TD and AI, tanking
Why should OST player use T4 unit?
Tiger is got stronger because people was whining in the forum
As a result, the meta became simple, the balance between commanders was broken, and the game became boring
While I agree that the Tiger might be a reason for rarely seeing T4, the Tiger got stronger because of a general and well needed heavy tank overhaul. Just like literally all other generalist heavies.
At the moment OST needs a T3 because they don't have a LV in the class of a Luchs. The gap between the 222 and a Panther is just too large to be feasable in many games, so OST needs a P4 or similars to keep the pace. Unfortunately thr T4 tech cost (BP plus building) is very expensive. Can't 100% recall what the cost was, but I think something like 40 fuel plus some MP. So if you want a Panther, Pwerder or Brummbär, Allies get a third of a medium while you just spend ressources. SOV get half a Katy for you just teching.
I think OST can rely on T3 with good micro, but T3 is at the moment NOT OP compared to other tiers of Allies. OST T4 just gives additional possibilities or heavier variants of units, but we rarely see it because Tiger and too high teching cost. |
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It might the slight nerf that the Jackson could take without interfering with the rest of the balance.
Decent idea. 5-10 armor nerf might actually be enough so that a P4 would hit very reliably. The only thing to watch out for is indeed the Puma since it could be a very easy and sacrifice to get a Jackson that might have already been hit. Especially with the smoke it could really cheese a Jackson kill if it penetrates too reliably. |
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