SPshreck are situational, they weren't even wanted by Relic when they redo OKW. If I recall correctly they where given because the community asked for it. They aren't there to deal damage but to stop LV push if you can't afford a proper vehicle to do it.
I don't understand why you want to make them deal more damage since they already fulfill their intended "STOP AT GAP" role. Or you want to change their role but I don't see any reason why, if you want a more offensive AT solution, the Puma is there for you.
I mean, their role when you equip them with shreck is the same as Penal with PTRS. Should we increase PTRS penal because they have little use atm? Of course not. You get them if you fail early on and can't get a vehicle soon enough and really need something to keep your opponent own vehicle at distance. Nothing less and nothing more.
BTW, I can already foreseen the problem you'll create with the combo Luch + elite pshreck and potential faust or raketen close by.
Elite Zooks require Elite troops to handle them, someone said that we could give them to officers and for the same reason as above I'm not approving it. I don't want to see stock elite zook + any USF light vehicle every games. At the moment if there are any on the field it is because certain doctrines have been selected and that what make them balanced.
What do Relics intentions from whenever that have been reworked multiple times have to do with how we should balance currently underused units?
I disagree on the part that they fulfil their role properly. Against an Clowncar, M5 or AEC they can, but not against AI LVs. Sturms AI DPS drops off quite a bit so you can't let them run arouns the battlefield alone anymore because basically every other unit will win against them. Also they will lose to a normal LV because they can be pushed around and prevented from shooting. You can't do that to PTRS Penals, Riflemen or RE. Panzergrens have the advantage that their damage is so high that a slight screw up costs you your LV. Single Schrecks don't have high damage and have to do damage over time to be effective, yet all of them are 4 men squads and relatively squishy. So you always have to run around in squads of two (mostly speaking for Sturmpioniere here).
To your last two points:
Using combined arms is actually exactly what this game is about. So if the unit gets used like that it would be a huge plus for my idea.
Please tell me in which way at least Sturm troopers do not qualify as elite units in the sense of the game? But apart from that the argument is not very strong. Every unit should be balanced according to its power level and potential shock value. The single Schreck upgrade currently has mo shock value and mediocre at best power level. Quite contrary, the unit on its own becomes weak to both its counter (which is good) as well as the unit that it is supposed to counter. And constantly needing to blob 2-3 units together during the early-mid game transition is not beneficial to the flow of the game. |
First of all I am really wondering if I am the only person who has ever played against Panzershrek Stormtroopers. I for one find them annoying enough already, even if they're off-meta. Sturmpio shreks are rarer, sure, but I'd be willing to bet they still show up. Also, Tank hunter partisans were included in this list, and do possess a snare. I'm against giving them an 'elite shrek' too.
Apparently yes. The majority of people here agreed that they rarely see single Schrevk squads and that it's not worth getting them. Yesterday I saw one guy getting a sungle Schreck Sturmpio in a Twitch game in 4v4. But judging from the snares that the Axis players could have done but did not, I assume that it wasn't a high level game. On the other hand the OST player in the same game blobbed 3 Panzergren Schrevk squads.
Both the Bazooka and the Panzershrek can and do hit infantry units; they are however prevented by dealing anywhere near lethal damage because most infantry AT damage is now done via a requirement action in a penetration effect. I forget the numbers but I think the PTRS does like 20 damage if it connects, the bazooka and panzershrek doing something like 40. Only the guards PTRS iirc has a reasonable chance of actually hitting models, however, the rest being comparable to the shrek and bazooka.
I'm not sure about the exact accuracy values, but given that handheld AT regularly misses tanks I assume that the base accuracy ranges between 3-5%. Which would be then the natural hit chance for infantry models.
I do not see any reason why single shreks should be better than they already are even(especially?) on these squads. Most of these units end up ironically granting the shrek in their possession better stats anyway through veterancy. Partisan tank hunters get extra 10% penetration, -20% reload, as well as 30% and 10% accuracy bonuses. Stormtroopers and Sturmpioniers get 40% accuracy compared to 16.7% and 20% on the Panzergrenadiers. Just for comparison, Rangers and Paratroopers only get +25% accuracy for their bazookas.
This isn't a change that is needed and this isn't an option that should be anywhere near meta in the first place imo. If I were to personally reluctantly approve of any change it'd maybe be an accuracy buff on solo shreks since, as has been said before, they fire slowly and they've only got one, but Shreks are already more likely to hit than not at most ranges anyway.
I don't much like 'elite' slot items differing wildly from their base counterparts (that very much includes elite bazookas) and so it stands I don't much like this idea. I've stated likewise on the PIAT thread as well, before anyone gets any ideas, though I do think something should be done about the out-of-cover reload debuff for them since putting PIATs on Tommies basically makes the PIAT as bad as it could possibly get.
You completely neglect the context of the weapon. The Schreck by stats is not bad, but a single Schreck is a waste of mun because it does not to enough 'threshhold damage' as I explained in the opening post.
Next point: I basically threw Partisans in thrre for the sake of completeness, but if they see some play afterwards that would be great. Obviously this decision should be made on a squad to squad basis, but the fact that all of them are completely underused while actually not being extremely micro intensive suggests that they are not in a good state.
Also I'm not sure where your accuracy stats are going. Panzergrenadiere get the dame accuracy buff as the other squads (basically ensuring high alpha damage) and they are not OP. I would leave bazookas out of the equation since the squads they are on and the tanks they fight differ wildly from what Schrecks face. This would just open a completely new field of discussion, and this is not what this topic is about. |
I bundled Battle Phase 3 and T4 together.
In proposal B, Battle Phase 3 is a requirement for medium armour.
See my edit, I got slightly confused because of a type in the box.
Yes, you are right then. |
Option A is functionally identical to the tech structure in the new patch. I matched all the costs on all the teching paths. All the costs match.
The current Ostheer tech design currently has a redundant Battle Phase in it. I just reshuffled it to be between T2 and T3 instead of T3 and T4.
I just meant that the previous patches basically moved most of the cost from buildings to battle phases.
I assumed that you had a typo in proposal B:
T3 is currently written that it only costs 140 MP, although the total tech cost to T3 also says it would cost 55 FU, which would also go along with keeping T3 timing. This proposal would revert the intended change from end 2018 to allow for easier back teching into T3. I'm not saying that this is good or bad, just wanted to point it out.
EDIT:
I just figured out that at option B the costs are confusing.
For the box at T3, you wrote the building cost is 140 MP, but as I said the FU cost also goes up by 55 FU. You wrote this probably with the locked units until you tech BP3 in mind. However, you then again forgot to add the MP cost from BP3. So the total cost in the T3 box is now a mix. The MP cost represents the total cost up to the T3 building (without BP3), while the FU cost represents the total cost WITH BP3. |
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Your proposals would basically revert the previous and currently intended change for OSTs tech structure.
As far as I remember, the change previous (I think end of 2018) was made to allow for easier back teching from T4 into T3. I don't know if this was a huge issue though at the time or not, and which modes were affected.
I generally like option A. I never understood why OST has to do this weird double tech structure which is basically unnecessary apart from timing a couple of units/upgrades better. The job it does at the moment is only mediocre, I think your suggestions would improve that a lot. It would also slightly buff Osttruppen since they get their LMG about 2 min earlier. |
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I think the real question should be:
Are Brits behind in the CP gain? I have not played them much in the last time, so hard to tell anymore. As far as I could tell they were not lacking much, but I also never paid attention to it.
If they lack behind, they should gain CP for teching. If not, then don't? |
Panzershrek dont need to be "elite"
enough strong
That is probably also the reason why we see so many single Schreck squads. Because players know that they are way too OP and don't use it because of fair play.
Elite Bazookas are Bazookas buffed up to Panzerschreck level. An Elite Panzershreck would be an Elite Elite Bazooka.
All the Sturmpioneer shreck really needs is to not lock out the minesweeper. That's the real problem with it.
First part is factually wrong. Even the elite bazooka has worse stats than the Panzerschreck apart from reload time. But even if it were true: what's the point? Obersoldaten LMG is functionally elite version of Gren's LMG which is functionally an elite version of Guard's LMG. So Obersoldaten LMG is elite elite DP28. Pls delete Ober LMG. Sorry, but I cannot see the logic here.
I can see the point in the second suggestion. Still I'd like if the OKW has to make a choice here. Sturmpioniere don't scale well into the late game regarding their AI capabilities, so they would now have two no-brainer upgrades instead of one. It could fix the problem, but if we have a solution that would lead to overall better game design (like I think mine would), I'd prefer it. |
(...) the squads that get single Schrecks are (maybe I have forgotten one) OKWs Sturmpioniere, OSTs Sturmtruppen and SOVs AT Partisans. (...)
They don't function well with a single Schreck. On the other hand, giving them two might cause other problems.(...)
What people here constantly keep missing is that this wholebidea does not affect regular Schrecks like the ones Panzergrenadiere have AT ALL.
It is simply an idea to slightly buff single Schreck squads in the hope of getting them a little bit of play again. Nobody uses them in the current meta.(...)
(...)
This is basically a 'buff Panzershrek' thread since every unit besides Pfussies capable of fielding Shreks is already an elite unit (...)
This unfortunately sums up page two of this thread. |
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What people here constantly keep missing is that this wholebidea does not affect regular Schrecks like the ones Panzergrenadiere have AT ALL.
It is simply an idea to slightly buff single Schreck squads in the hope of getting them a little bit of play again. Nobody uses them in the current meta.
Also to the argument it will negatively affect team ges: Sturmtruppen come at a time where your infantry build is usually finished. Sturmpios are expensive early on, don't scale too well for AI and bleed a lot. You should actually be happy if your opponent goes for three Schreck Sturmpios |
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Since I did not suggest a solution to the problem yet:
I suggest what I suggested in a previous discussion about the SU76: It does not need a straight stat buff. Give it utility instead. Make the barrage cheaper. Or give it something else, even if it's the StuGs stun shot (maybe limited to 50 range). |
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