OKW sturms can drive out rifleman squads in garrison and Volks molly too (since it burns it's much better than one nade that can easily be dodged if paying attention). OST has the long range no fuse nade that can easily drive you out. Especially since 50% of audio cues do not play (GRANADE!) or less. I've lost many a unit due to no audio being played on nade use (or playing with Asians/US and having 3 sec latency). Soviets can easily drive out with molly too. US and UK don't really have anything to drive out effectively. Still, absolute income in early game can dictate the rest of the game, especially munitions. Most players tend to ignore munition points and then flame OKW OP! OST OP! when they can easily nade and molly your positoins, while you can't (or they just leave like it happened last 5 games in a row, 2 wins -- 3 loses --> 5 abandones, rank 100 xD).
I'd argue that absolute income matters at each stage of the game. And that's how I usually play USF. 3 Rifles fight while echelon caps what it can. I usually win games where I have munitions income early on cause it allows rifles to equip bars to fight medium range since they lose long range (green cover vs green cover directional) to everything except CQC units and no MG42 grens (that's where MG42 comes into play as a counter).
I don't know, I have noticed a trend that if I win early game and have a lot of capped positions, it's easier to transition into next stages. This is of course 3v3. 1v1 is vastly different. 2v2 a bit less but still different.
OST riflenades only come after 40 fuel which is about 3 minutes into the game and becomes even longer when the fuel is contested, molotows come even later. And Sturmpios only work well against garrison when there is no or only one window on one side, otherwise you will likely lose or at the very best are forced into a bad trade. Many team maps have garrisons or cover positions near the fuel point (and if not many mainlines can build it). If you manage to contest it for even two to three minutes, that's 14-21 fuel your opponent does not have. And if you manage to get the income of that for one of those minutes, you gain another 7 fuel, giving you an effective 21-28 fuel surplus over your opponents.
The tactic is not as popular in 1v1 because it is easier to just ignore your own fuel point and take cut offs from your opponent to deny his resources and even it out again. Relative income is the whole reason why cutoffs exist: because you can cause a lot of resource damage by only neutralizing them and keeping them neutralized. You don't need to get the income from that point to gain an advantage.
I do not understand your points about absolute income. If you manage get ahead of your opponent for 50 fuel, munitions or whatever, you will get your tank/mine/upgrade earlier and manifest the lead. You do not get an advantage by having an high absolute income, you get it by having a higher income than your opponent. |
The absolute income does not matter in the initial phases. What matters is how much more you get compared to your enemies. You can rush important points with the first 2, maybe 3 squads while your team mate or the fourth squad of yours caps the map. Most faction have a really hard time driving you out of garrisons in the first 5 min, so as long as you deny the resources you are good to go.
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Read twice initial post - still didn't figure out what kind of bugs are you all talking about? I've had some @ 4v Lienne like ability buttons of mortar and grens blended somehow. Also disappeared controls for brit sections: couldn't retreat, throw nade... nothing.
Yes that's the exact issue.
I have experienced it some time ago, but did not have issues for the last months despite playing Einhoven and other affected maps regularly. Maybe it's just a lucky streak. But only the other I think they don't happen too often anyway. Most games are still fine, although no one obviously sees the bug if it happens to someone else.
I once had the feeling though that if the bug happens, you have a decent chance of it occuring a second time in the same match |
I'd say easiest to learn is Soviets because of their 6 men squads that forgive mistakes. Then OKW, USF, OST and UKF.
To get rid of their bad habits, just play against them to crush their bad tactics and show them what big noobs they are. Don't forget to write "gg ez" at the end of the match.
But for real: If they just play for fun, let them play for fun? If they want to rank up and play competitively, then they should realize themselves that this takes learning more tactics as well as screwing up more matches because you - obviously - still have to learn. |
I write in caps because I dunno how to underline a word on this site...
(In the reply screen there is a "tool bar" at the top. Left side is standard text formatting for bold, italic and underline) |
I wasn't comparing Paras' Zooks to Rangers' Zooks. In fact, I wasn't even thinking about Paras, I was comparing triple Rangers' Zooks with PZGs' Shrecks.
I think you are misunderstanding him. Korney did not compare Paras and Rangers, his point was that elite bazookas are good vs OST T3.
I am also unsure of where he wanted to go with that, but that's how it is. |
“ITs oNLy oN vILsHaNkA” and “IT DoEsN’t dO iT On otHEr MApS”
Yet since this has become a prominent and well known topic, I’ve tried to tell people with each patch it spreads to other maps with more and more regularity.
This is a Relic bug and has something to do with the recompiling/uploading process that they do. It is only going to get worse as the patches roll out and the community works on any of the maps.
Could you elaborate why you think that there is some kind of "accumulation" over time that makes it worse?
It could be something within the Relic server infrastructure, then the CoH community could do nothing about it. If however it has something to do with properties of the map, then the only way the error "accumulates" would be if the map always gets downloaded from Relic servers for reworking, or am I wrong here?
How do custom maps behave? I don't think the maps in the workshop get compiled by Relic as well, so we should not see any error or accumulation there?
I am quite interested why you think that the issue will become worse with further patching. |
Well, I've had plenty a 3+ model wipes against sturmpios with 1 shreck. Usually late game my minesweeper vet3 echelons behind cover can't deal (4+1) with sturms rushing the cover with shreck and 3 automatic rifles. You have to retreat. And I've had (seldom) that stock vet3 echelons lose vs sturmpios with shreck (3+1). I have effectively used shreck sturms as small squads to capture loose points (close to nobody defending it). Shreck usually ensured that I don't get chased off by some light tank or sth. I don't think that sturms need any early game nerfs. They are toxic to play against as USF early but later on as an elite repair unit that can stand it's ground, it's good.
I think the power of sturms lie in the ability to chase off any assaulting infantry early on. IMHO, I've always used and seen it successfully used as a squad to help out OST set up MG in teamgames. I'd sent sturmpios with ally pioneers to a fuel point and secure it for the MG to come and set up and then go help another VP (so we control ~60% of map). Sure they drop off in direct combat usefulness later on but they were never intended as a spearhead, direct combat unit. They repair well, can stand their ground and can be upgraded with shreck, can swap out minesweeper, can wipe a squad in a couple of seconds flanking.
Sturms are supporting unit. They are intended to support and they do that job perfectly.
I am not arguing about their early game power or their late game role. My point was solely on the subdebate regarding the Schreck upgrade.
Their late game AI power is okay. For the price overall probably not that good, but they can still add to the overall push if needed. But losing 1/4 of that is quite a big deal, especially since it also increases the damage drop off with model loss. And as I explained, the damage versus vehicles is not that great |
That's a good definition for the meaning to be a poor solution. So what's the problem? pshrek on Sturm are a last resort solution.
They are not a "last resort", they are useless. They are supposed to be supplemental, but they just end up to be a burden in your build since the upgrade turns a decent AI unit into something not worth using vs infantry and vehicles. They don't fit into any build, they don't diversify the game. And they are also no "last resort" as you say, because for 300+ MP you can just get a proper AT gun. |
Single shrek was meant to be poor. It is like saying Penal AT package is poor, well that the purpose.
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Lol ok, if that's the level of debate you're proposing, forget it.
The purpose of the upgrade is to provide enough AT to deter LVs over time as well as prevent being overrun by all types of vehicles by getting a snare. I don't know what's so hard to understand about that. AT Penals, even isolated, cannot be pushed around by a LV or overrun by any vehicle.
Single Schreck squads are pretty much useless. The issue is the very high risk factor. If their first shot hits, then things might work out okay. If they miss, then good night because you might get pushed around until the end of time. Additionally, they always need support due to a lacking snare. And while the Schreck scales decently into the mid/late game, a single hit does not help you much against anything above LVs unless you can additionally snare the vehicle. The 120 damage does not replace a normal ATG shot, so you need a second hit to do anything. Now combine the mediocre performance with high cost, high reinforcement squads (that additionally do very well in the AI department, so you also have a performance loss there) and your result is a pretty useless upgrade. |