Kudos to Relic for apparently still updating their cheat detection for CoH2. I hope this is part of the decision for long term support of CoH2 or maybe even the whole franchise.
For AE, Sturmpanther and everyone else involved it is also good to be backed up by these facts since this whole thing was a lot of stress for them. Getting some confirmation of having done the right thing is good, I hope this helps to finally end this topic mentally as well.
Regarding John's comment, I also read it the way that Relic was disappointed by how the community discussed this topic in general. I do not think this was targeted to AE and the other major players involved, if then only as part of the whole community since this issue had multiple layers.
Obviously, don’t you remember the Grenadiers voice line?
“Smell that? Soviets!”
THAT should be a new ability for the commander revamp patch. |
The way Vipper's sum of all comments are written is that any unit & commander alternatives to OKW should be more like Paras because they have a nice gimmick (along with other posts strongly suggesting this). I strongly disagree that they are nice. Hence me putting my long lists of points on why paras are NOT good, and that they should not be used as design idea basis for a good OKW commander. Any result would just be utterly bad as the USF paras commander. I'd rather see something else instead than a paras OKW commander clone that comes with an endless big fat "HEY I'm using ability here" button. I would love to see more units spawned from ambient buildings instead. Something more sneaky to make infantry and tanks more sneaky. Cameo deployed trucks! Cameo units! Cameo everything!
edit: I know, no new units, but there are plenty of cameo stuff from OST which sucks in OST but may be good for OKW...
I agree that Falls should not follow the USF design and also that Paras and Falls are not meant to be used offensively anymore, but apart from point point d) due to the lack of camo (however Falls also should upgrade first) I don't see how your points only apply to Paras. I debate point c) since there are plenty of good drop spots on 2v2 maps in my opinion, even for the larger circle of Paras.
On the spawn mechanics I'll probably open a new thread since I find this topic quite interesting, but it does not really fit here. |
That is so wrong - you are missing/misreading/ignoring many points that both Katitof and Hannibal are listing. Let's rephrase that for you and let me add a few points from my extensive experience of facing usf paras as OST 2on2:
a) Paras telegraph to the enemy that Paras are going to land (plane on the minimap, and it's easy to figure out possible location due to plane path)
b) they take ages to spawn, and ages to land and ages to be ready to engage the enemy.
b2) because they need ages to ready up, they are not of any use for a long time (no capping, no flanking, no usefulness at all).
c) they need a large space to land safely. There are not that many in 2on2 maps. Players waste time deciding where to use the ability, not microing other parts of the game.
d) even if they land safely, and without alerting the enemy, they need ammo and most importantly crucial time for them to upgrade to a good weapon.
d2) by the time they are ready to do something, they're superseded by better units.
e) they will most likely have to retreat through the front lines, and most likely lose more models.
f) more!
That gimmick that you are trying to tell us is advantageous is actually a massive disadvantage. Honestly, I love facing paras usf, the whole commander is useless and badly designed but pathfinders for early recon. USF paras are just a waste of manpower, ammo, and time if landing behind enemy lines. It shows you have little clues about actual play. Falls commander is better in every way.
I don't know why you point this out. Vipper said parachuting is not more than a little gimmick, you say parachuting behind enemy lines is shit as well. It's not like you two are really disagreeing on major points.
Some of your points also don't say much because you do not mention any alternatives. Yes, Paras and Falls take some time to land. But your alternative is to build a main line/Obers, and those don't spawn at the press of a button either.
I'll leave it at that since this part of the discussion has less to do with OKW commanders rather than spawn mechanics. |
That is a problem of the "rush to last tier" mentality but the design is there and is good.
No, this is an issue of beacon design. They are decently visible to the enemy and get destroyed quickly. It is just not worth the effort of trying to sneak Pathfinders behind the line, set up a beacon in a somewhat disguised spot only to later drop paras (probably hide them without camo until they upgrade) and reinforce there. Chances are that the beacon is already destroyed or that it will be once the enemy sees they are reinforcing. Assuming you can soft retreat in the first place.
The game is just too quickly paced in general for these types of play and in larger modes too densely "populated" with units. You're just better of with supporting other units and capping points instead of wasting 1-2 minutes of this unit not doing combat or other jobs. They are just too expensive for that.
What OKW luck is a decent assault squad that is mid oriented and durable VG simply do not cut it and ST44 obers are do not fit army composition in sufficient number. Fall can easily fill that role with 5 entities.
I agree that Ober has little or no reason to have booby traps.
JLI are not an infiltration unit since the enter the field normally and not spawn form ambient buildings are closer to pathfinder.
Volks are mid to short range oriented. And unless you want to make Falls a replacement for main line infantry, you won't be able to fit more of them into your build than you could fit Obersoldaten (which is usually 1-2 depending on initial build and late game wipes).
The infiltration was not meant as the spawn mechanic, but as the role on the battlefield since I was talking about unit roles the whole time. I meant it as their role in recon and trying to slip through the lines.
You are the first one to call them infiltration unit, he didn't even indirectly.
Stop projecting your thoughts onto others, its insulting to other posters and shows your utter disregard for their arguments.
The way I phrased it makes it an understandable conclusion. I actually even meant it as an infiltration unit, however not in the mechanical definition that Vipper uses. |
That is a bit inaccurate. Both Paras and Falls do not need to be in friendly territory to upgrade with weapons.
That's why I focused on feasibility. Especially paras can't wait the half minute or so upgrade time that it takes them to get LMGs or Thompsons while being fully visible in enemy territory.
USF paras where designed as paratroopers and there are mechanics for increasing the success of an aggressive jump.
That includes sending pathfinder in the area to set up a beacon that serves both as means of safe landing from "collision" casualties and from enemy fire since it provides mini map info for potential enemies. In addition it allows Paras to reinforce that combined with passive healing available them via meta allows them more staying power.
The beacons are a nice idea, but they don't really work the way you describe. You're usually not able to set them up behind enemy lines and then later reinforce from that point. It just takes too much time and effort for little gain. Best they can do is to provide some recon when placed behind shot thick hedges and a forward reinforcement point for paratroopers (best I can achieve is slightly behind my own frontline). Otherwise they just work as long range terminators, similar to Obersoldaten.
-snip for brevity-
The chances of a model dying is very slim when you place them correctly, especially with the small landing area that Sanders already pointed out. I don't see why they need to have 5 men because of this.
There are a lot of suggestion of yours, due to time shortage I won't comment on detail on them since they partially have quite far reaching implications.
Overall, the commander does not need a buff. I would not buff Valiant Assault in any way since it is in line or even one of the better versions of infantry DPS boosters. Therefore I'd also not buff the airborne assault ability. I'd rather give it a rebalance to 150-180 mun and nerf accordingly. This way the Fall reinforcement becomes more useful as well.
Regarding Falls, OKW does not have many niches that they would fit in. Currently they have a big overlap with Obersoldaten which is not great either. 5 men could work if they probably lose 2 FG42s and get a slight reinforcement cost buff. But what will be their niche? The only thing OKW needs is an infiltration unit. There are already JLI, so Falls don't need really to provide sniping capabililty or recon (which is already available in the commander with the smoke recon). Regarding damage, OKW has all ranges covered except for a super short range burster like Shocks or Commandos. Potentially they could also focus more on diversion and swap the booby trap ability from Obersoldaten. This would probably be a good change overall since Obers come already loaded with two grenades and a vet suppression ability. Technically, I could even imagine them to have a more "dig in" type of design, allowing them to build trenches (possible in non-friendly territory only). |
VG have 5 entities so not that standard.
Riflemen are also 5 entities yet the paras is the only USF unit with 6 entities. The reason behind that is that aggressive airdrops are hazardous. Entities might hit world object and die or can be shot down before they land die.
If paras are not used aggressively the hole mechanism become less important.
That is correct. If they get more entities they get less DPS, but that is a good thing.
More entities would create more differences with obers.
Point here is that USF paras a well designed unit that work, and falls should use the same design.
I personally would not that a unit.
i think the paradrop mechanic is fairly pointless at this point other than spawning them somewhat closer to the front line. Both units must upgrade anyway to reach their full potential, which takes some time and can't be done behind the front line (not even sure if it is possible at all, but especially for paratroopers it is not feasible anyway due to lack of camo).
So what would your design of Falls/airborne assault commander then look like?
The only design I can currently see is to make Falls a short range camo squad similar to Stormtroopers. OKW already has short-mid range covered by Volks and mid-long by Obers. All other camo squads bring something different to the table, like Soviets getting fragile 4 men Partisans and OST and UKF getting a short range specialist that specialize in traps/demolition. OKW already has most of this covered. |
/moved thread to gameplay since there is no balancing suggestion
Now that you mention it, I remember that discussion. But there are too many posts to dig through.
As long as falls nades combo don't render HMGs useless through a frontal attack as Shocks did ages ago, I don't see a reason for any change at all.
I tried to find it but no chance, I think it was a sub-discussion in a thread that was about something else.
Vipper was only pointing out why they are handled differently which was Latch's question. There were no suggestions (at least not yet).
Technically the blendkorper could also share CD but it rarely matters in the first place. There's a decent reason against that too. I wouldn't fix what isn't broken and likely does not provide benefit either way. |
He clearly says and supported with evidence by the patch notes, that it is Shock Troopers related. You are arguing with an element copy-pasted from patch notes. Also, you are changing what he says to all infantry, deflecting the point. Is there a reason why you are changing what he and the patch notes says? In my post is the reason behind the change of shock's nades. I agree that there should be some shared cool-down, but it clearly depends on units. Shocks nades were abused to death..
I agree it is quite nitpicky to focus a general point about shared nade CD on shocks only. I don't understand Katitof's point either on this one since it does not contradict anything.
Many other units got similar treatment, most well known probably Riflemen that were changed the same way because of that: Axis HMGs were becoming useless. And I vaguely recall Sander stating the same reasoning for the difference between blendkorper/smoke nade and shared CD with the grenade in one of the patch discussions (I think it was the patch before last). I can't find it at the moment, but I think it was along the lines of blenkorper doing damage, so unlike smoke you can't push through it to throw the nade. Since nothing got changed in that regard, I assume this is the opinion of the majority of the balance team.
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Main point here that four entities is low count for parachutist and should be increased. One could even give luft 2 different types of Falls an infatry(or infiltration) version and airdropped one
Why is it low count? For Axis squads, 4 men is fairly standard. If they want more squad members they need to lose a lot of DPS, which would basically force that we'd get a completely new unit. And that is not doable according to Sanders. |
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In 1v1 it might potentially be okay.
But 3v3 and 4v4? Infantry running around vamp fires while every side gets a "free" barrage on the enemy? Not a great idea.
It was a quite nice idea, but the game overall is just way too fast paced to suddenly slow everything down for a minute.
I'd rather have more map features like deep snow and mud with slower moving speeds come back. |
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