LT makes sense to be just a better rifle squad, so maybe give him the AT grenade
I think not, not at all. Lt zook + AT early combo is simply OP
Posts: 2358
Thread: USF Officer improvement20 Jul 2019, 19:27 PM
LT makes sense to be just a better rifle squad, so maybe give him the AT grenade I think not, not at all. Lt zook + AT early combo is simply OP In: COH2 Balance |
Thread: USF Officer improvement20 Jul 2019, 19:25 PM
Why should LT and CPT receive free buffs? Did you want to make those units more unique or want them to powercreep? I disagree about the suggested changes too, both units are unique but also part of a riflemen platoon and can even be in the frontlines. For comparison OKW sturmoffizier cant risk himself to take damage or the entire blob falls back. OST arty officer is somewhat similar but its doctrinal In: COH2 Balance |
Thread: Overwatch Flares20 Jul 2019, 05:57 AM
+1 on a manual imput to capture point flares. In: COH2 Balance |
Thread: Everything with this faction is so friggen expenisve...20 Jul 2019, 05:19 AM
Cost for TECHING is about timing. Cost for units is to represent performance. In both cases its true, but there is a little of timing on both. Teching cost affects timings, its the most notable example, as they open the tech tree to new units they limit availability of such units. But the first appearance of a unit is determined by its cost, that is a more subtle timing though. The fuel cost of tanks is a good example of timing too. With regards to performance we could agree if we both mean of same faction units, also cost limit/ease the player strategy with said faction. Now if we talk of cost of units between opposite factions, we might disagree on some points. 1.Cheaper is worse fallacy: I hear a lot that "cons are bad because they are cheap", relatively speaking they are cheaper than other squads, true, but it doesnt mean they have to be bad. A counter-example is MG42, its cheap and top tier of MGs, the reason its because OST design encourages the player to use such an efficient unit. On the case of SU cons, its cost limit/enhance the unit spammability in this case. The opposite is quite true too, a more expensive unit does not mean it has to overperform. Sure its frustrating to save a lot of time and resources to dump into a unit that cant get a single thing done, but the cost is telling the player to consider more seriously if he/she should invest the resources or to give away that combat. Sometimes you can get a bigger gun but its not the smartest or the best way to win. To summarize, i think a unit performance is determined by the faction design, the current metagame and game timings 2.Cost justifies units toolkit: If a unit has more abilities or more powerful vets, its cost adjusts to include them, i would say that costs includes more aspects than average players normally take account, even the never used abilities. The possible combinations within the faction and with other allied factions are taken account, that plus the unit intended role end up affecting its costs. This way units can be layed out as cost-effective units/core units/premium units. Keep in mind i am not comparing units between factions yet. A premium unit is one in a faction that shouldn't have such tool. Imagine mobile mortars on UKF, they are a premium since they are doctrinal. I dont remember its costs now but you get the idea. 3.Cost efficient combat: This might me the hardest to agree of all. If a unit is able to deal cost efficient damage that is an intended role too, the cost efficient part is the consequence, not the cause. Imagine ostruppen fighting off IS. Of course IS are better overall infantry but if we suppose the case of cover to cover combat, ostruppen might hold the line same as grens, but with less manpower investment. Mortars are cost efficient vs garrisons, tank destroyers are cost efficient versus same tier tanks. All intended roles, based on the premise there is a risk involved that the enemy could change plans or never field the intended units. There is a complex relationship between proactive gameplay and reactive gameplay, one gives birth to cost efficient units and the other to counterable units. Both points of view aim at the same mechanic. With the ostruppen example, they dont counter IS in any way but they do offer map control in early game, which is more a proactive tactic than a reactive one. All of this determines a unit risk/reward factor and it then sets its ideal unit cost. With the unit cost fully elaborated, there is one last point about timings. All factions timings are loosely tied together, because all factions use the same resources for simplicity and all of them come from time passing by. Of course one could capture fuel/muni points to earn some/more but that only promotes map control and strategic thinking. Munition cost limit abilities uses and fuel costs are the second, more exclusive resource income. All resources are infinite, as long as the game continues and VPs do not end. In the end the best cost efficient units or the safest generalists are always fielded, one depletes the enemy resource pit and the other solidifies a VP. Units cost and build time limit how often they can be replaced and veterancy focuses on units preservation instead of throwing them off like a C&C game. But it all started and ends as timings stacked up as resources. In: COH2 Balance |
Thread: So are they really nerfing the Churchill Tank?20 Jul 2019, 02:26 AM
A little off-topic plus: Agreed on the first part. The shotgun efficiency example was related on how easily and how cheaper it is compared to a rifle shot at hunting a bird. Since efficiency definitely improves effectiveness, sort of a multiplicative way. As related as they can be, they are both different concepts. I also agree on this next part, but with a different point of view. So...
On the first part, the subjective definition of answer and the player skill involved said, has been the most meaningful truth told in the whole thread in the best objective way i have ever seen. If this sentence were the starting point of all balance thread, the whole forum would be 100x much more productive. Its true there is a subjective part, but also an objective one. Since facts come from actual gameplay and game design. Each player intends its units for a purpose, if they align more the actual intended purpose the unit efficiency and effectiveness is as clear as clean water. (Using AT squads against other inf is plain retard but also source of many badly developed discussions here too). Now instead of void-comparing panthers vs curchills hit points (or shots) let me try to explain my point of view on how effective a churchill does its job. Its main tool its durability IMO Churchill intended role is sort of spearhead heavy tank, focusing on team weapons and infantry (this last one is Axis lategame weak point) and it does its job pretty well. Some might say it could do it better and its arguably a good suggestion. Its durability allows him to "receive panthers attention" leaving out gaps for other tank to dish in damage, since churchills gun is actually capable of damage a panther on close range. Its slowness is attached to its durability and cant be changed. Its frontal armor is good enough and its rear armor too, because of the game engine incapability of differentiate real back shots from lateral back half shots. The armor has to keep as it is too. It has smoke to either use it defensively or offensively (rarely seen used like this but it could hide a tank in it) and the grenade can threaten any anti tank gun nearby. Churchills durability is like a bridge, on a river of incoming fire, if it can withstand and get up close can be really dangerous. If a panther is present on the other side, there is no real threat to it front to front and because churchills are so slow, normally axis players back up, hitting the churchill along the retreat path. That is the churchill main weak point, it is easily kited. But at the same time, the axis frontline was displaced and the churchill support can advance, to secure the tank and to hold the new place. Churchills are not tank killers (no need to buff its gun further), are frontline tools. A single panther would not stop that from happening (A couple of stugs will). Thit shows that a panther is not efficient (and therefore not effective) vs churchills. Panthers are not hard counters. Braindead players comparisons are out of this scope please. Even when 1v1, a panther will have a hard time fighting off a churchill in tight spaces, but this case is very situational, like a flanked MG, meanwhile in open map snares and support units will kill any chasing panther. Loosing both units at best. If a frontline is well defended vs AT (2 stugs, lots of ATG) is reasonable that a single churchill wont do, but there is no reason for churchills to be infalible either. Using artillery or flanking is the solution there.
I agree with the concept but IMO it is not efficient enough to deal with heavies even when considered the cost and unit tier differences. Its like a stugIII vs a is2 situation. Sry for the long post. Here's a marine potato In: Lobby |
Thread: USF Base Reorganization mod19 Jul 2019, 23:26 PM
I absolutly love it. Much tidier. I do care a bit about the ambo snipe situation but with this setup, can you park it inside and use buildings as protection? In: Lobby |
Thread: So are they really nerfing the Churchill Tank?19 Jul 2019, 23:15 PM
Oh i understand perfectly. I agree with you on the meaning of efficiency about how well resources are used to perform a task, but i slightly disagree on assuming the job gets done. A shotgun is efficient but not effective if you want to hit a bird but not the entire tree. A rifle is effective at it but accuracy can make you miss some shots, therefore not as efficient (and more expensive too) A churchill vs panther scenario: A panther is rather expensive, *not efficient but effective counter. Is it worth saying it counters churchills at all? It might counter most of tanks but in this case it doesnt. Its pretty fair to compare panthers to fireflies in this specific case. As fireflies struggle vs highly mobile tanks and the common Pz4 it is often described as bad, because it lacks of efficiency in its role. Now panthers struggle against specific fundamental allied units such as churchills, jacksons and SU heavies. IMO A hard counter must be both, efficient and effective, given the correct situation, in other words most of times (not being flanked or ambushed) In: Lobby |
Thread: Everything with this faction is so friggen expenisve...19 Jul 2019, 21:02 PM
This whole thread is full of alliebabies rants and to prove it:
Wow. Guys, the point of the whole forums is to disagree and it being about the game balance situation and not your personal delusions and emotions of the game. As for the OP title, costs only mean timing (since resources come alone with time) and strategical desitions, if usf units are expensive it means they are to be waited for. But once fielded and given the right care thay do very well. In lategame situations its better to have many expensive units fielded rather than cheaper on demand squads In: COH2 Balance |
Thread: So are they really nerfing the Churchill Tank?19 Jul 2019, 20:07 PM
Oh, but it is most certainly a hard counter against churchill. Ok, i am confused now. A panther IS or IS NOT a hard counter to churchills? A panther will pen, even frontally, a chirchill but its the volume of fire the needed aspect to kill churchills. Its a technicality but to say panthers are hardcounters is wrong if they lack whats needed to kill churchills at least in a real game situation, in 1v1 and/or in most even scenarios. Thats why a couple of stugs are a reliable solution and a sidenote, only 1 wont cut it, but its reasonable since the costs involved result more balanced, 2 stugs vs 1 churchill. Why a allied TD has to easily displace panthers if that is what they are intended, but not the other way around? Im not being a fan of panther, i just found a dent in your logic. By your opinion katitof, are panthers TD or not? In: Lobby |
Thread: What Role Should Heavy Tanks Serve?18 Jul 2019, 21:45 PM
Well said Derbyhat. Heavies imo are ment to be a new tier of tank power, not just premium'er mediums In: COH2 Balance |