Tactical Movement isn't really a useful point of comparison just because of how weak it is. (also you forgot tactical movement is CP2 vs the CP0 of radio silence)
I'd actually say tac movement is balanced. For the cost of oorah twice your whole infantry army sprints, and machine guns too. The ability isn't flashy, but it's not bad at all-the commanders it's in on the other hand....
I haven't played the commander in ages, how much does the usf smoke/sprint combo from that ranger commander cost?
Really it does highlight how OP radio silence is (the tactical movement that is)
But funny enough, if the movement types were swapped, so that the Ostheer one was the sprint but not sprint allowing them to fire on the move (keeping in mind that grens are ass on the move, pios are ass at range and really you only need to worry about pgrens) and if radio silence had proper sprint both abilities would be much more in line with one another
The big ugly of okw having a fire on the move speed boost is they can have stgs on quite literally their entire infantry force... Stgs that are good on the move meaning it's disgusting with synergy. Ost would not present such a problem. |
The issue with Bolster is primarily that it's a non-exclusive global upgrade. If it were both exclusive (I.E, taking (a) weapon slot(s) and/or locking out Pyro or Medical Section upgrades) and not global, then it wouldn't be quite such a nightmare for balance... but the issue is that the current design necessitates either;
A: Underwhelming 4man sections -> Usable 5man sections.
B: Usable 4man sections -> 5 rapists bending Volks and Grenadiers over a sandbag wall.
This is then compounded with Brens, particularly so in B;s case, where it's as though you're equipping your Sections with sandpaper condoms.
Lelic needs to bite the bullet and let the Balans team overhaul Bolster (and Section upgrades) entirely. I really don't think there's much else that can solve this.
The only other solution I've been able to fathom is making the "Assault" Officer a fiveman starting rifle unit that UKF can be expected to rely on, using "Underwhelming" variety Sections/RoyEs and the UC to support it until Bolster comes online to make Sections able to go toe-to-toe with Axis infantry. The Officer would subsequently have the ability to upgrade into either the current SMG variant or into something else (Snipe-enabled scoped Enfield squad, for example).
Also: I'm led to believe that the Medic Squad is (At least in part) intended to benefit the Lend-lease Doctrine, specifically Assault Sections, as they cannot upgrade into being Medical Sections.
were of the same mind i think for the cause/effect of bolster and the need to make it non-global
lend lease is kind of tricky for sure, but since ass tommies are a unique unit now and not an upgrade for existing unit the ability to heal could have been implemented on the squads if need be (vet like ost, or unlocked with tech, or even self heal like many units have now. the commander also comes with the m5 quad, which can now heal units inside- far from perfect, but when combined with the starting tommy being able to be a medic and the FA being able to get medics i think it woulda been fine) or an ambulance upgrade for the UC unlocked with the commander.
whats more, the brit player could just....build more regular tommies if they felt there wasnt enough heals.... its not like ostheer gets a new way to snare units if they pick up ass grens. they have to integrate a snare unit into their build or suffer.
the way i see it, is a commander has issues you dont change the stock faction to "fix" that commander, you change the commander. its better to have the problem isolated in that commander until fixed than making a change that will effect everything entirely.
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Like 90% of the playerbase, the balance team hates Brits, so the priority is nerfing them to an unusable level rather than fixing anything 
IDK mate. The first month of the balance patch was basically focused exclusively fine tuning their third healing option
To the topic. You can't balance the brits because you can't balance a faction where the infantry has to be balanced in 2 states. Bolster is holdong back the brits so hard in terms of balance. It never ever ever EVER should have been a global. Taking that away and those tea drinking swine can be on the way to a balanced state. Until that point tommies will be disrupting balance by being in a state of OP that justifies other things being too weak or UP and justifying things being strong.
Im under no illusion that balance is easy, but it straight up doesn't make sense for there to be such a balance variable in something as core as mainline infantry and the counterbalance in place to accommodate them.
Just like trying to balance commanders with a fucked up core full of holes you can't balance a faction with fucked up infantry. |
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Yea I'm not sure the 0.13 speed of tac movement really offsets the 3x as long duration, 2cp earlier, and hidden from mini map effects... |
It does matter.
In addition the JP4 cost about the same (or even more) then most allied TDs, has about the same XP value (or even more), has about the same Pop (or even more) when most counters are cheaper.
In sort it a huge investment that might or might not work while still one need to win the infatry fight.
If it was a truly "excellent" choice I would expect to be used more.
For the same price yuu sre denying the enemy use of theirs. They may not have to replace the TDs but not being able to use them despite the heavy reliance on them is huge.
This is more or less what we're talking about with the elefant and JT. Because they sure as shit can't chase, but being able to deny the enemy armour is nearly as good.
If the unit isn't able to do its job it is countered. |
True, but similarly to the overperformance of the T-70; Soviet need to have changed made to them to allow them to deal with these things without resorting to gimmicky crutches.
I agree entirely. For years I have been saying that every faction needs non doc answers for everything. I'm a huge supporter on the idea of boosting medium tanks close range pen so that they can be a viable alternative to frontally head butting armour with TDs.
But as it is the zis isn't going to force off an elefant (nor should it) both soviet TDs are casemate and will lose that nose to nose fight and even with the buff, PTRS' arnt going to have the time to sit and plink away against even an easy bot. |
It's an extremely easy combo to pull off, and the munitions cost is more than worth it to delete an Elefant, Tiger, or Konigstiger. It's absolutely a cause for concern.
While you are not wrong, the issue is that soviet don't really have any other answer to elefants and JTs. Heavy tanks can be gunned down by SU85s but the case mates are a lil tougher to go nose to nose. Without some reliable tool to flank they are helpless against them |
Can you give some examples? I'm not certain which things you're referring to precisely.
Relative positioning and weapon profiles meaning something, okw vet, Brit... Everything... To name a few. |
Well, you pointed out that Ostruppen are not stock units. Receiving Ostruppen is therefor 'special' in your stock army. There is no commander with a conscripts LMG upgrade in the game, therefor Conscripts with DP28's are just as 'special'. However; later jibberjabber proposed a different approach which is easier to achieve and likely easier to balance.
OK I get it now. I think a weapon upgrade is different than a new unit. Ideally doctrinal abilities offer something new or access to something you don't have access to.
Ostroppen are not in the core and there is nothing similar.
Cons are run of the mill, and while dps are new, I don't think they fit so much. Cons are not supposed to have centralized DPS because with their tankyness it could be too powerful. This is also why they only have 1 weapon slot.
7 man grants the ability to capture and reinforce a decrewed weapon with 1 squad and not lose it. Coming earlier in an attrition game could prove valuable and in line with the essence of the ability.
There may well be easier ways to go about making both these abilities worth while, but Id really like to look at making them viable without spoiling their essence.
The units coming pre upgraded gives them a bit of attraction late game if needed but if the timing is right they can find value when unlocked as well, while the infantry game is still aggressive. |
Could also designate a unit as temporary "Local Radio Operator" that remains as such while the ability is active and that has the Radio Silence aura around him.
But I do ask myself if such complicated mechanics are meaningful if success is almost entirely dependant on how opponent plays mechanically (with results ranging fron devastated to barely noticed). That's the issue that keeps returning for me.
what about something like a captured USF halftrack with the ability (boring but maybe the m5, since it works as captured from all factions then)? give okw another option with forward reinforcement and a tunable unit to deliver on timing. it suits the faction, as well as the ability's source material
beacons arent bad though, be even better if tied to an infiltration unit that has other abilities to sow discord (fake info, soviet scorched earth type ability ect) but thats a lot more work
TBH what i like about the ability is that its impact depends entirely on the enemy. id like to see more abilities that flip the script not less. too late for that i imagine, but i really do like the idea behind it and it was a sleeper ability bfore they gave it sprint. i had it used against me once in a 2s game and it had the desired effect! my mate and i had a hard time coordinating due to incomplete info, but in a fun way... |
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