Don't get me wrong. If you do think that every faction should work completely without a commander, I'm totally with you. I argued as I did because I took the more realistic aopproach that factions will not be reworked to that extend. If you don't rework them to that extend you have to include commanders to get it somehow balanced by promoting a handful of commanders to automatic picks (because they fill the blank spots of the faction). In an ideal game you would rework factions totally - as you suggested - yeah, then you are absolutely right, commanders should be just the icing of the cake which you can balance individually.
Looking at the current debatte at UKF where dev team already rejected the proposal to give UKF a real artillery piece beside reworked mortar pit (-> land matress) I'm quite pessimistic that it will happen ever.
AT this point I mostly argue merit of things like core balance in the hopes that if there is a coh 3 the idea might stick and we don't have to relearn the mistakes of coh2.
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Cons are decent, but they still lack burst potential of grenades and focus fire weapons, while the enemy does not. Being able to knock out models rapidly is a core component of the game right now and cons are one of the only squads in the game that is punished for losing models via linear DPS drop. You can knock out 3/4 lmg gren models and while it would indeed be stupid to keep em on the field, their overall DPS output remains largely intact. You take out 3 models of a con squad and half their dps is gone.
This isn't to say that it's an issue of this design and I by no means want a centralized DPS option for cons, but how they operate needs to be taken into consideration.
Whats more, as said previously, paying the se for a pak but flat out worse with no advantages is shitty balance.
The zis is worse at AT but more versatile. This is OK, even good design. It allows the unit to not over perform in one spot, "and still have other advantages thus justifying its price.
The isu is an extreme example of this philosophy.
As much as people like to bitch about the isu and its AP shells existence, without the option of having AP its AI would need to be massive to justify its price. We had that at one point and it was dreadfully oppressive.
A lot of things go into balancing a unit, some of these things are "needless extras" that keep its performance where it's wanted.
Nobody would argue that ZIS AT performance is top tier, it's middle of the road statistically, but is still priced as the two above it, in part because of the barrage. It's part of the whole. We don't want stock paks with 6 man crews so we have a worse pak with flexibility but the same cost. The price is justified by the package and the package by the price. Start fucking around with one and the other has to change. Start changing the price and you invite a whole host of other unintended changes. Start fucking around with the package and the cost effeciency gets thrown off as well as resounding effects like the soviet, pound for pound getting less for the price than ost in performance and utility.
And to wrap around, get rid of the barrage and soviet have no burst potential whatsoever in their opening tiers. They are designed with the barrage in mind as an option to fill the whole missing elsewhere. And cons with a nade would be far more oppressive than the occasional zis barrage. |
Nice idea, yes, but overall I assume this is not attractive at all, implementation issues aside.
Osttruppen models are balanced around the 6 men squad and mostly the health that they provide. I wouldn't buy a three men squad of those + 1 model grenadier. Veterancy would also be heavily mixed up. And especially on PGrens and other elite units this option is not attractive at all, since you'd get so much less for the population it takes. Also it might be hard to remember/see which and how many of those models are in a given squad, so neither you nor your opponent would really know how effective this squad would be.
My interpretation of this would be like merge without merge. Basicly, yes you are getting a squishier model, but you sre saving on reinforcement cost and time. Might be useful from a halftrack on the front where you don't want to retreat.
Perhaps being limited to weapon teams would be best, but I think the idea is quite fresh and manages to give it some niche outside of "get vet 0 ostroppen way to late in the game" |
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That's a pretty neat and out of the box suggestion. Very cool |
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Yall acting like the zis barrage isn't along side conscripts whom lack a proper nade and lack centralized DPS. Their whole shtick is that everything that isn't a dedicated specialist is flexible so that a host or meh performing units can still tackle any task. A worse pak would be just shit from an interest and balance perspective |
I completely understand you. But if you really want to reduce it on the nondoc stock units, then something is horribly designed. Take a USF/UKF team in 3v3 and 4vs4 for example. Not a single piece of somehow long ranged artillery. They are pretty screwed in its core in big game modes and it gets hard already at 2vs2 while it is not that much of a problem in 1vs1.
you don't understand me because what I'm saying is that this shouldn't be the case. Every faction should work without commanders. Every faction should have whatever tools are deemed necessary stock in some capacity
Another example: Soviet has Shock Troops / Guards as elite units on so many commanders that they are practically getting their missing stock elite unit there. Most of the soviet commander who have neither of these have Conscript Assault Package Upgrade to make Conscripts in early to midgame more competitive. It is pretty much a “stock” mechanic of soviets to boost heir infantry options. It is similar for soviet tank options but not to that extent.
this is a result of TRYING to use commanders to make a shitty stock faction work. But despite that soviet have come leagues from when that was the case. Penals are formidable, cons have an upgrade. The su85 is arguably TOO good as opposed to not suffecient. Soviet has only gotten better as stock options have opened up. Long gone are the days of not having the right commander and the game being over as a result. This was a good direction.
One last question: On paper it totally sounds good to balance core first but is it really possible in reality? How do you want to balance around core faction if there are no games played with both sides choosing no commander? Playtesting a hundred to thousand games without commander? All the casual/ranked games out there get influenced by choosing a commander at some point somehow. You won't get reliable data.
obviously it's probably too far in the life cycle of the game now, but it should be from the ground up ideally. Failing that many of the remaining players are lifers, I'm sure we could get some donated games in as a community to get some statistics if we wanted to. A core tournament would also be a way to see the higher end of things. Some things however are obvious like a late game blob buster being a requirement. Suppression. Garrison clearing. Smoke. Heavy AT. These are things that are missing in a few of the WFA factions. There can be off kilter ways of providing these things, but they should be there in some realistically accessible capacity
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That's really no reason for it to be quite such an outlier in terms of friendly fire damage.
Iirc sturmtiger will nuke friendly units but the AVRE won't as well. |
You mean to tell me that abilities that cost ammunition are a pro!?!?!? Oh no!!! I did not know that! I thought they put them there as a bait.
well, you did just post that muni abilities arnt a pro so....
but some ARE bait, volley fire for example, serves no purpose but to trick new players
at any rate, the 57mm also costs 15% less than "normal" at guns while sTILL having areas that its superior in. pen isnt that place UNLESS you pay muni, in which case its superior in EVERY category |
Yeah, best penetration as a munition sink is not really any kind of argument. For or against. It's an ability, not base stat. Coupled with the higher than average armour values on Axis armour, it's absolutely needed. Yeah, best arc and tracking, worst pen. End of story. Any sort of munitions sink to do it's job well is not an argument for "pro" of any unit.
I disagree. Abilities, are actually the basis of this thread. You can't ignore their existence for convenience. Despite the cheap cost, the 57mm is formidable if you have the munitions. Just like the zis, despite its lower stats than the pak is more versatile if you have the munitions. Abilities are as much the unit as its stats are.
Oorah is a pro for cons
Lack of a snare is a con for tommies
Volley fire is a.... Actually let's skip that one...
Flares are a pro for soviet mortars
Smoke is a pro for cromwell, Shermans, LVs and what not
HVAP is CERTAINLY a pro for jacksoms
Its also a pro for the 57mm
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Whatever you say Zis is still the only AT-gun in the game that can do AI-damage with 6 man crew. Which makes it still the best universal AT-gun in the game. I am still of the opinion Barrage should be behind it's veterancy 1 skill. If soviet faction with maybe the most option of anyone for indirect fire can't live without Zis barrage then there is much more problems with the faction.
Actually every single AT gun in the game has a 6 man crew, if the soviet man it. As such its faction trait and not a gun trait. You can't balance team weapons that can be crewed by anyone with the trait of that faction in mind because you end up with things like the maxim that is absolutely without value UNLESS you have a 6 man crew.
The zis pays for the barrage with inferior AT stats, which believe it or not, is why people buy AT guns.
Soviet weapons in general seem to pay for inferior stats with increased utilities (this helps offset the 6 man crew in a way but ensures that the weapon has value without the crew despite the lower stats, something the maxim notably misses as an example)
Also. The OTHER soviet AT gun also deals AI damage and has a 6 man crew following with the above reasoning but also disqualifying your complaint entirely. |
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