To think of the counterplay to flamer-Penals, try to think of how you counter Sturms in the early game.
If Sturms push, and they are at full health, you fall back to a supporting squad and gun them down. If Sturms take the cover, you harass them from far. Sturms will either have to move out, or be bled.
You do the same thing vs Flamer Penals, only that it's easier (they drop models faster).
In the lategame, when everything revolves around long-range, Flamer Penals will be terribly outscaled. Thus, your enemy will not want to upgrade more than 1 (2 max) Flamer Penals.
You can dodge grenades and return to cover, the aoe in flamers can constantly deny cover.
That doesn't happen, you will end up like live with 3 penals all with flamers just pushing units out of cover constantly and forcing to move and fire with rifles... while they fall to the ground because of the fire effect.
Penals with flamers are not fun to play vs, it breaks one of core gameplay designs of using cover feel redundant.
Wait what? No, it isn't the same, you can dodge a grenade and then return to cover.
You seem to not understand the fundamental problem here, a mobile, durable flamer thrower unit is the problem, it still denies cover too easily since there is none to little micro to be done.
At close range, cover is already irrelevant. It gets ignored by all weapons at ranges 10 and below. By clumping up in cover, you are throwing yourself to the AoE. Precisely like the Tommy Grenade example.
Next time a flamer Penal squad comes for you, step out of cover, chin up, and murder them as they approach.
The Volks in this video would rightly earn the Darwin award.
This would be like throwing a Tommy grenade at a piece of wood, and then taking your vet5 Obersquad to hug that grenade and get wiped.
.. and then used that video as a proof to claim that Tommies are OP.
The counterplay to flamer Penals is simple.
When you see them approaching:
- You can either turn the other way. Since their range has been shortened, they can't damage you. Now you can rendezvous with a supporting squad
- Or step out of cover. Flamers are AoE weapons and do a ton of damage to clumped up squad. They also do extra damage to squads behind Green cover
Finally, note that all weapons ignore cover at short ranges, which is the range the PPSh has to be in order to operate. Thus, by stepping out of cover you aren't exposing yourself in danger to the squad.
Different Question: What is the state of the Raketenwerfer?
Does it actually hit things now or still fire into the ground?
It should fire heat-seeking missiles as often as the other anti-tank guns now.
However, missed shots (and attack ground) still have a higher chance to collide with terrain, since the barrel of the gun is closer to the ground.
We could try whatever value Cruzz used in his Kappatch to raise the projectile a bit, while still making it look like it legitimately exits the barrel. I wouldn't be hopeful that we can do this for WBP though, since we have already modified far too many files, and Relic wants to keep things tidy for when they have to reimplement stuff for the main game.
if you are looking in to abnormal vetting speeds, flame halftrack vets up super quick for reasons obvious.
The good-thing about super-vetting halftracks/vehicles/etc is that they cannot get to vet3, then pick up an LMG34 and wipe everything with it. Thus, if a vehicle vets too good, we can mess however much we want with its bonuses with 0 repercussions.
AoE weapons tend to have higher vet speeds, I'm not sure if this is linked to the fact that they damage all models at once, or there's something extra. For instance, Penals with the AT satchel do get a ton of veterancy off if you manage to land it.
Unfortunately the workaround I used for pschrecks/zooks won't work that well on AoE weapons.
Moreover, the workaround looks super-messy, and I'd rather we contained that to only the weapons that really need it (i.e., the ones we changed). I would consider expanding the same rules to AT snares as well, but they are buggy enough as it is for now.
M3: check
Kubel: check
WC51 ?? super high fuel price, high mp price and no buff. survivability down with earlier pfaust.
Apparently The Scope does not include underperforming doctrinal vehicles. Note that we can't give WC51 shared veterancy for technical reasons:
- Every time you jump out of the vehicle, the crew (and the vehicle) loses all experience gained through the shared-vet mechanic
I had to redo everything. Which has resulted in not redoing anything.
For instance, I had a really simplistic mod that I made to test switching Penals with Guards. Since I had edited both ebps of both units, after patch the sbps would not know to reference the edited ebps. Guards would be 0 mp for a squad of 0 units. (It resulted in a button that did nothing.) I was able to reclone my changes and get it to work in that case. Some of the other parameters I'd made, like the completely new abilities, seemed to stay intact though. BUT I think it only breaks things that Relic changed. As in, I think in this examples situation Guards and Penals broke because changes had been made to Guards and Penals (and anything REFERENCING a component of Guards and Penals) in the patches since I made that mod.
For my more complex overhauls I just started making a completely new mod after the fact since I didn't even know where to begin.
The mod in my signature, for instance, modifies unused ebps that haven't been changed in any patches that I am aware of. As a result it appears to still function.
*bump*
When it comes to updating a mod to work for a new version of the game, would it help if I gave modders access to the source files of WBP? Like, would it help people home-in on what has changed and what not?
I've talked to Kyle about this, and he's cool with doing that, once mod changes have been finalized.
Separate post for V1.4:
There are good ones (specially ones which were ask for years) and some which will have big repercussions.
FINALLY:
Reduced the rate at which infantry-held anti-tank weapons would award veterancy
251 Flame Half-Track against garrison
Ghost Wire/Sand Bags
Minimap Icons
Bug Fixes
Stuart: does it really need it. Does it make a change? +10 pen is not gonna make OP i guess.
Penals: i think at this point the question should be, is it worth the effort of testing/tweaking to implement PTRS rifles on them? ATM i think that live Penals have enough flavour but they are OP in the sense of spamming them for 2v2+. The addition of AT satchel, changes to flamer, oorah and vet should be enough.
M3A1 Scout Car: i'm cautious regarding how fast it's gonna gain vet and the effects it could have the accuracy bonuses at vet2/vet3 early on.
T-70: i hope it's not TOO good.
Panzerfausts: why not only 1 change. In fact, why not only the deploying a truck to be applied? 25 seems a bit too few. I'm bargaining why not 30 from the start.
Kubelwagen: FINALLY the detection is changed to something more sensible. I'm just a little scared about shared veterancy and how fast it can vet. Specially since no human has use it's vet powers since the day of Kubeljesus. I'm interested on how passive repair and suppression is gonna perform, for a unit which can now capture points.
T-70 MG would have about 2-3 DPS at max range, which is basically nothing. On the right conditions, it could also take 9 seconds between bursts.
For the vehicles that got Shared Vet, we kind of no-scoped the thresholds. In order to tune this to the right value, we have to play loads and loads of games, and see how much opportunity there is for blobbing around the thing to boost its Vet.
Unfortunately, most of the changes were implemented during holidays, when we didn't have the time to playtest the threshold changes as much as we wanted. We also completely forgot to add shared veterancy to one other vehicle that needs it (can you guess?!). However, there will definitely be adjustments, if needed.
Part of the reason we wanted to give OKW early faust is so that we can make early light vehicles scale in a meaningful way, without turning on the neon signs, and inviting people to walk over OKW with them. That's the same logic as behind Brits, Light Vehicles and PIATs.
Fun facts:
- M3A1 target size: 18
- Target size at Vet3: 12.6
- Target size at Vet3 with Overdrive active: 9.45
Kubeljesus received accuracy at vet5: 9.94
Just a word of caution to everybody:
If you see Handheld AT weapons (e.g., panzerschreck) dealing inconsistent damage, please report this ASAP. The workaround I used to get the veterancy nerf in for those things was by screwing the damage model up and turning it into a PTRS-like one.
Seems like I added a small bug when resizing the minimap icons for various vehicles:
- Katyusha and Panzerwerfer minimap icons do not follow the actual rotation of the vehicle
(I've no idea how it could possibly happen, since I copy-pasted it to other vehicles too, but I have fixed it for v1.5)
seems odd that a patch about with light vehicle focus can't give brits some form of at nade. There is like no good reason for them to not have one, other than making them "different". As well as not addressing the valentine or greyhound which currently are useless and have no place in the game at all...
We did give PIATs homing projectile. Perhaps that will be enough to help Brit early game, perhaps it won't. At the very least, you won't be seeing cancerous PIAT spammerinos in the late-game.
Regarding AT nade:
- That would very likely require us to rebalance Tommies (since they now become generalists)
- And it would also definitely require us to rebalance Comets/Cromwells
Even though both are highly needed, those are way out of scope. Now that I'm also looking at it from midway-through the WBP, I also think that this would have been far too many changes for a single patch to handle.
Regarding Greyhound etc, we have plans about how to address those vehicles. Unfortunately the scope of "Light Vehicles" only includes "Non-doctrinal Light Vehicles" and "Overperforming doctrinal light-vehicles" (Stug-E). A plus side of narrowing the focus is that you guys can playtest the hell out of the ones we did change!
Great now that the flame ht isnt as good at burning units out, we essentially just reward garrisoned units more. This unit is already fragile and risky to start with and was changed simply because some noob started a thread about it. Its 90 munitions. Raise its cost again to 120 if its to good for the noobs stop out right nerfing and buffing shit.
Before actually passing judgement on how much we nerfed the flameHT, would you kindly first try it out.
You know, you can even take the 2 minutes to launch cheatmod and try it out for yourself.
The flameHT wasn't even nearly as nerfed as the value change implies.
So it looks as though penal ptrs is here to stay then?
Oh well. Once again excellent qol changes and bug fixes. Balance changes are questionabe at best.
What is the replay threshold for listening to feedback this time around?
Relic is hosting a survey atm, for people to voice their opinion about the changes we've done for each faction. One of the questions that has to do about Soviets was about which flavour of Penals you prefer:
There is still a long way to go for the patch. While we don't have any dramatic changes in-line for v1.5 yet (we will want to finetune the new vehicles we just touched), I am pretty sure we will also try a PTRS-free variant at some point (maybe from v1.6).
0
Romeo
Mr Smith
Luciano
Mr Smith
Relic Entertainment
