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Maxim redesign redirect thread

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20 Aug 2019, 10:38 AM
#61
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3968

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Aug 2019, 10:34 AMKatitof

Boi.........

Let me in on a lil secret that not a single player has found out about for the last 7 years of CoH2.



But don't share it with anyone, pinkie promise?

Also, you didn't understood what I said in the first place.
yes again, what ur point ? pen round will deal more damage and pen lv , suppressing fire will deal more damage and suppress more easily

by sky logic this would mean that mg 42 is a counter to lv and the maxim is perfectly fine HMG (100% burst duration, extra suppression, half reload and cd speed)

both aren't and the ability only gives them a chance to do it
20 Aug 2019, 10:43 AM
#62
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13765 | Subs: 7

yes again, what ur point ? pen round will deal more damage and pen lv , suppressing fire will deal more damage and suppress more easily

by sky logic this would mean that mg 42 is a counter to lv and the maxim is perfectly fine HMG (100% burst duration, extra suppression, half reload and cd speed)

both aren't and the ability only gives them a chance to do it


You see, there is a slight difference between vehicles and infantry.

You can HEAR vehicles in FoW and easily predict their movement that way.
20 Aug 2019, 11:03 AM
#63
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1341

maybe it has something to do with the MG42 being the best MG ingame even without abilities... whereas the maxim is the worst mg ingame even with its abilities...
20 Aug 2019, 11:22 AM
#64
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3968

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Aug 2019, 11:03 AMgbem
maybe it has something to do with the MG42 being the best MG ingame even without abilities... whereas the maxim is the worst mg ingame even with its abilities...
them make it an mg no need to over complicate things, more suppression more set up
20 Aug 2019, 11:48 AM
#65
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1341

them make it an mg no need to over complicate things, more suppression more set up


then how is soviet T2 supposed to deal damage?... if "conscripts are meant to support team weapons" and "soviet team weapons suck"... then how is the build supposed to work?
20 Aug 2019, 15:56 PM
#66
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3220 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Aug 2019, 11:48 AMgbem


then how is soviet T2 supposed to deal damage?... if "conscripts are meant to support team weapons" and "soviet team weapons suck"... then how is the build supposed to work?

Like it does now. Skip t2 entirely, build t1.
20 Aug 2019, 16:17 PM
#67
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 1519

yes ? he was arguing that pen round ability make the mg 42 a LV counter, but by that logic the maxim ability make it both dps and suppression


You do realize ap rounds provides good dps bonus too right? So if maxim has dps and suppression, mg42 has suppression, dps, and light AT...
20 Aug 2019, 17:26 PM
#68
avatar of KiwiBirb

Posts: 384

The problem is, if you buff the maxim you get maxim spam.

How about this? Merge changed to not reinforce, but to give a weapons buff to the target squad.

Maxims: +20 ~ % suppression
AT guns and mortars:-15 ~ % reload

An example of how this could be used:
-Before an attack, merge your cons with your mortar so it fires faster & forces the machine gun to reposition quicker, then urrah in.
-Before a Defense, merge you cons with your MG so that it suppresses faster, or your AT gun to kill his tanks faster.

This would also help negate the Zis’ bad reload compared to other at guns and the Sov mortar’s bad ROF compared to other mortars.

It would probably also need a debuff added to the cons to stop it from being a no-brainer
20 Aug 2019, 17:28 PM
#69
avatar of KiwiBirb

Posts: 384

I also like the damage / suppression split idea, and I think it could be implemented with this change.
Maybe word it like this:
Continuous fire: allows the maxim to suppress at the cost of damage
Burst fire: removes suppression to increase damage

It would also be switched to a free toggle, mile Sherman HE/AP shells.
20 Aug 2019, 18:16 PM
#70
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3968



You do realize ap rounds provides good dps bonus too right? So if maxim has dps and suppression, mg42 has suppression, dps, and light AT...
u forgot semi main line
20 Aug 2019, 19:16 PM
#71
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13765 | Subs: 7

u forgot semi main line

Maybe he just mentioned the things that actually work instead of what looks good on paper.

The "assault HMG" design was killed quite some time ago, it is just a waste of resources except very rare scenarios.
20 Aug 2019, 19:26 PM
#72
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3968

Then why revive it, make it an Hmg
20 Aug 2019, 20:05 PM
#73
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 1519

Then why revive it, make it an Hmg


Ask Relic, they seem to be the ones who have refused to do it for the last 6 years
20 Aug 2019, 20:47 PM
#74
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3220 | Subs: 1

The problem is, if you buff the maxim you get maxim spam.

How about this? Merge changed to not reinforce, but to give a weapons buff to the target squad.

Maxims: +20 ~ % suppression
AT guns and mortars:-15 ~ % reload

An example of how this could be used:
-Before an attack, merge your cons with your mortar so it fires faster & forces the machine gun to reposition quicker, then urrah in.
-Before a Defense, merge you cons with your MG so that it suppresses faster, or your AT gun to kill his tanks faster.

This would also help negate the Zis’ bad reload compared to other at guns and the Sov mortar’s bad ROF compared to other mortars.

It would probably also need a debuff added to the cons to stop it from being a no-brainer

That's why I want a price increase as well, to prevent spam. Being cheap add shitty mean that unless you spam it it is without value.
I realize that maxim spam is a risk, but even at sary 300mp, it wouldn't transition like penal spam would because it SAS no AT capacity. Build too many maxims and you have no mp for your guards or zis and if you need mote AT you need another 32+mp unit, you can't just convert your existing units as needed. Conscripts would add a b it more flexibility of course, but that's a good thing!

Let's say we implemented my changes with a cost increase to 300
That means 2 maxims plus the building is 760mp. That's 3 squads from both enemy factions. 3 squads will definitely out perform 2 mgs plus the Soviet will have no map control.
Thte Soviet will save to mix in cons jusr to get territory and make sure that when the time comes they can get AT.

Of course ideally cons will get a cost reduction to make this work a bit better but ultimately the maxim would be useful and cons would find a home as bodies to be around. You will, no matter how you decide to play always have an expensive but limited strong unit, be that penals, "guards, shocks or maxims, and a needv to make up ground somehow--conscripts.

I see no reason for this to not work in theory. I think as a direction it is at the very least worth playtesting some how just to see how it feels.
21 Aug 2019, 07:04 AM
#75
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 1491 | Subs: 3


That's why I want a price increase as well, to prevent spam. Being cheap add shitty mean that unless you spam it it is without value.
I realize that maxim spam is a risk, but even at sary 300mp, it wouldn't transition like penal spam would because it SAS no AT capacity. Build too many maxims and you have no mp for your guards or zis and if you need mote AT you need another 32+mp unit, you can't just convert your existing units as needed. Conscripts would add a b it more flexibility of course, but that's a good thing!

Let's say we implemented my changes with a cost increase to 300
That means 2 maxims plus the building is 760mp. That's 3 squads from both enemy factions. 3 squads will definitely out perform 2 mgs plus the Soviet will have no map control.
Thte Soviet will save to mix in cons jusr to get territory and make sure that when the time comes they can get AT.

Of course ideally cons will get a cost reduction to make this work a bit better but ultimately the maxim would be useful and cons would find a home as bodies to be around. You will, no matter how you decide to play always have an expensive but limited strong unit, be that penals, "guards, shocks or maxims, and a needv to make up ground somehow--conscripts.

I see no reason for this to not work in theory. I think as a direction it is at the very least worth playtesting some how just to see how it feels.


Maybe it still worked against that, I doubt that OKW has better starting infantry. But against the Wehrmacht, it’s just suicide - the Wehrmacht has the best machine gun of the game in T0 and (suddenly) the Wehrmacht also knows how to spam a machine gun while you capture points there and build T2 + Maxim Wehrmacht is already preparing for your arrival. for 300mp and T2 Maxim should be a bloody OP - because its price is absolutely inadequate.
The USSR does not need Maxim redesign, but the entire infantry redesign, which is terrible: Maxim should support the main infantry and not support the support infantry, but the main infantry is now in T1 and the support in T2 is crap.
21 Aug 2019, 08:34 AM
#76
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 1820

sometimes i see the following: some want to chance unit without seeing the big koncept. Shure...some unit are underperforming...but this has mostly a reason because some other are overfperforming or are really good when you combine this 2 units.

like it was with the brit...you gave them a an AT nade...but doesnt chance anything by their other AT units.

they have now the best AT option from all faction. Running around with pio which can carry handheld AT while have AT nades...and a very good AEC, AT gun, TD with high alpha and stun and nondoc 17pounder, sniper, mines...they GET ALL THE STUFF FROM ALL OTHER FACTIONS (nondoc in better versions).


all this make them now op compared to other faction in this point.

you can´t power up weakness and forget all other stuff from this faction.



21 Aug 2019, 09:25 AM
#77
avatar of Balanced_Gamer

Posts: 783

Maybe Maxim surpression should stay but it should have something to compensate for its lacking surpression.

Well, most of you are aware that when a unit is surpressed, the accuracy on the supressed unit becomes lower meaning harder to hit.



What I am thinking is, if Maxim manages to surpress the unit, the Maxim will still able to hit the unit by ignoring the accuracy multiplier on the unit being surpressed. The yellow supression, accuracy multiplier be ignored for Maxim only. Make it unique in this way also.

It only be for maxim still 1x (times) mutliplier (unchanged its accuracy) while others suffer a multiplier as they currently by 0.5.

It wont suffer like other MGs at all, not hitting targets properly while surpressed but Maxim out of all MGs can. I think this is a good idea, avoids spamming but yet makes it viable.



It would be one of the MGs that be best at killing models faster, yet is able in some way to suppress.

Just to properly counter enemy units better with killing them faster, at the same time being able to surpress.

To force the enemy to retreat way more frequently due to the damage heavily sustained even while being surpressed.


Probably or maybe even consider improving its accuracy better than other MGs against units that are even retreating. Just to cause more a frightening effect yet a devastating effect. Since Maxim out of all MGs would be most effective at doing that!

To increase its overall efficiency.
21 Aug 2019, 10:02 AM
#78
avatar of Raviloli

Posts: 62


so all this make them now op compared to other faction in this point.

you can´t power up weakness and forget all other stuff from this faction.


Now hold on a minute there, buster, you're trying to claim that brits are OP so we can't buff maxim, please provide an actual soviet example of why the maxim being buffed/redesigned would magically make soviet T2 OP, what is strong about it? Its support from worst T0 infantry? Mediocre mortar? Okay AT gun that gobbles up munis for a chance to kill infantry? What's the big overpowered picture here?
21 Aug 2019, 10:14 AM
#79
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 1820



Now hold on a minute there, buster, you're trying to claim that brits are OP so we can't buff maxim, please provide an actual soviet example of why the maxim being buffed/redesigned would magically make soviet T2 OP, what is strong about it? Its support from worst T0 infantry? Mediocre mortar? Okay AT gun that gobbles up munis for a chance to kill infantry? What's the big overpowered picture here?


there is no big deal to get 1-2 maxims to safe good positions and get penals from t1.

this both rape everything (volksspam, light verhicles, bunkers, etc etc)


and dont forget: ppsh will now much earlier avialable. and the new cons are pretty solid with and weapon upgrade.
now we have early ppsh, great penals and a more better maxim? Comon..cant u see the this?
21 Aug 2019, 10:24 AM
#80
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 1491 | Subs: 3



there is no big deal to get 1-2 maxims to safe good positions and get penals from t1.

this both rape everything (volksspam, light verhicles, bunkers, etc etc)


and dont forget: ppsh will now much earlier avialable. and the new cons are pretty solid with and weapon upgrade.
now we have early ppsh, great penals and a more better maxim? Comon..cant u see the this?


You say nonsense. No one, no one goes at the same time in T1 + T2 is a critical loss of resources, time and being on the map. Even if you first build T2 and then after buying Maxim and the Conscrits to capture the map, no one goes further into T1, people wait for the shock troops and build T3. Are we generally playing the same game?
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