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Maxim redesign redirect thread

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18 Aug 2019, 22:50 PM
#21
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 14693 | Subs: 7

it's still unique with 6 men and fast tear down

and its seem like u want it to be an mg but not just an mg it must be better right ?

what's wrong if it's like other mgs

Faster tear down is hardly a unique trait, USF HMG can do so as well.
Its just 6 men, which is soviet faction trait.
18 Aug 2019, 22:52 PM
#22
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4219



He doesn't. He always reads something and takes it to the extreme, it's kind of his thing.

The issue is OKW is really good at blobbing and can even receive less suppression. MGs are meant to suppress. There's no point in having one unless it can do that.
u can see literally suggest to just add more suppression
18 Aug 2019, 22:53 PM
#23
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4219

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Aug 2019, 22:50 PMKatitof

Faster tear down is hardly a unique trait, USF HMG can do so as well.
Its just 6 men, which is soviet faction trait.
still unique, do other mgs differ that much from each others ?
18 Aug 2019, 23:36 PM
#24
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 2186 | Subs: 1

still unique, do other mgs differ that much from each others ?


None of the other MGs rely on a tech choice. Except the .50 cal, which sure does differ quite a lot from other MGs
19 Aug 2019, 00:16 AM
#25
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3712 | Subs: 1

still unique, do other mgs differ that much from each others ?

The other MGs are designed to support their core infantry. The maxim is supposed to be supported BY their core infantry. That's huge. You can't really compare it to say an mg42 and grens or a 34 and volks or a vickers and tommies because.. Well.... Those infantry squads are actually good. They fight well and they scale well. The maxim is technologically removed from good infantry and is by design expected to be a bit more than other MGs in that regard.

Think of my swap suggestion like the isu. You seem to be looking at this like it will be the exact same as now, but with more damage and Supression. That's not the case at all. You would have a damage mode and a defensive mode. If it's in damage mode it would be susceptible to multiple infantry squads, in defensive mode it would be flank able as any other MG, more so even due to its narrow arc and modified set up time (I'd like to keep the pack up somewhat quick ish just because of death loop) so if you flank it unless there is something there to stop you then it has mostly been defeated (kinda like now even..)

Each mode has weakeness but the MG can still perform both tasks its needed to. But not at the same time. And most importantly both of those aspects can be balanced independently of one another.

Could even keep the sustained fire as a vet ability as the increased burst length works wonders on Supression as well as dps.

As for spam, surely you know I'm against it as much as the next person and worked that into my suggestion with the price increase: at 300mp with no capacity to transition into AT like penals can you would be at the mercy of even a 222 of you build too many. An AT gun costs 320mp and would need to keep room in your build for that to make sure you are not torn a new one.

The high cost would also incentivise use of cons to try and make up the lost map control which is always a good start to making cons not suck :giving them a role. Also build time can always be adjusted as needed to ensure that critical mass even in team games has a price.
19 Aug 2019, 09:59 AM
#26
avatar of Grim

Posts: 814

How about after being set up for 15 seconds it gains a toggle ability to have higher suppression and firing arc but gets locked in place until the ability is toggled off.

A bit like how 'firing positions' works for the KV-2.

Just throwing ideas at the wall here.
19 Aug 2019, 10:21 AM
#27
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4219



None of the other MGs rely on a tech choice. Except the .50 cal, which sure does differ quite a lot from other MGs
by ur logic gren should be super unique?
19 Aug 2019, 10:25 AM
#28
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4219


The other MGs are designed to support their core infantry. The maxim is supposed to be supported BY their core infantry. That's huge. You can't really compare it to say an mg42 and grens or a 34 and volks or a vickers and tommies because.. Well.... Those infantry squads are actually good. They fight well and they scale well. The maxim is technologically removed from good infantry and is by design expected to be a bit more than other MGs in that regard.

Think of my swap suggestion like the isu. You seem to be looking at this like it will be the exact same as now, but with more damage and Supression. That's not the case at all. You would have a damage mode and a defensive mode. If it's in damage mode it would be susceptible to multiple infantry squads, in defensive mode it would be flank able as any other MG, more so even due to its narrow arc and modified set up time (I'd like to keep the pack up somewhat quick ish just because of death loop) so if you flank it unless there is something there to stop you then it has mostly been defeated (kinda like now even..)

Each mode has weakeness but the MG can still perform both tasks its needed to. But not at the same time. And most importantly both of those aspects can be balanced independently of one another.

Could even keep the sustained fire as a vet ability as the increased burst length works wonders on Supression as well as dps.

As for spam, surely you know I'm against it as much as the next person and worked that into my suggestion with the price increase: at 300mp with no capacity to transition into AT like penals can you would be at the mercy of even a 222 of you build too many. An AT gun costs 320mp and would need to keep room in your build for that to make sure you are not torn a new one.

The high cost would also incentivise use of cons to try and make up the lost map control which is always a good start to making cons not suck :giving them a role. Also build time can always be adjusted as needed to ensure that critical mass even in team games has a price.
u know , they could just move the cd in cover bonus after at nades for cons , make the maxim suppress , no need to keep cons up to make the maxim op
19 Aug 2019, 10:41 AM
#29
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 14693 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Aug 2019, 09:59 AMGrim
How about after being set up for 15 seconds it gains a toggle ability to have higher suppression and firing arc but gets locked in place until the ability is toggled off.

A bit like how 'firing positions' works for the KV-2.

Just throwing ideas at the wall here.

That's pointless micro tax and it doesn't need bigger arc, it needs what its supposed to do in its current arc.
Its already much less mobile then it used to be back in the day.

If its supposed to be suppression platform, then that suppression should be on pair with other HMGs, small advantage in mobility is compensated by high cost and lower arc already.

If its supposed to be soviet "LMG" infantry as one of the modders have said loooong time ago(year+ I believe), then it should have DPS to justify setup time and then low suppression is acceptable bonus, not needed crutch, which will also increase synergy with defensive cons screening for it in either attack or defense.
19 Aug 2019, 13:52 PM
#30
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 2186 | Subs: 1

by ur logic gren should be super unique?


Can you make a single point without complaining about axis? You need to stop calling out Codguy while you maintain this level of bias, its massively hypocritical

Grens aren't useless, the maxim is
19 Aug 2019, 13:54 PM
#31
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4219



Can you make a single point without complaining about axis? You need to stop calling out Codguy while you maintain this level of bias, its massively hypocritical
.... so literally using the same argument someone else used is being a fan boy ?

"None of the other main inf rely on a tech choice. Except the penals, which sure does differ quite a lot from other main inf "

:snfPeter:

do u see now or do need to go to ur safe space ?
19 Aug 2019, 13:55 PM
#32
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 2186 | Subs: 1

.... so literally using the same argument someone else used is being a fan boy ?


It's not the same argument at all. Grens don't suck. The maxim does

And ost t1 is not a choice the same as soviet t1 vs t2. Just stop
19 Aug 2019, 13:56 PM
#33
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3712 | Subs: 1

Now now children...
Also while the OP had my own suggestions, this thread is obviously open to discussion on any and all alternatives to the maxim problem.
19 Aug 2019, 13:56 PM
#34
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4219



It's not the same argument at all. Grens don't suck. The maxim does

And ost t1 is not a choice the same as soviet t1 vs t2. Just stop


and why the fuck do u think im asking for suppression buff ?

btw tier 1 is a choice, u can use doc units, ukf tier 2 is not a choice, su tier 3 is not a choice
19 Aug 2019, 13:59 PM
#35
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 2186 | Subs: 1



and why the fuck do u think im asking for suppression buff ?


Why are you freaking out over everyone else's ideas except yours?
19 Aug 2019, 14:00 PM
#36
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4219



Why are you freaking out over everyone else's ideas except yours?
making an mg have both roles will make it either spammable or UP, we have the perfect example, pupppchen, which was cheesy and had to fill 2 roles
19 Aug 2019, 14:02 PM
#37
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 2186 | Subs: 1

making an mg have both roles will make it either spammable or UP, we have the perfect example, pupppchen, which was cheesy and had to fill 2 roles


What do you mean "both roles"? It still can't fight vehicles. The mg42 can suppress infantry and kill light vehicles, but you have no problem with that
19 Aug 2019, 14:19 PM
#38
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3190

Machine guns have one job: inflicting suppression on enemy units.

The HMGs that do this in one burst (MG42, MG34, .50 cal, DHSK) are good. The HMGs that do not (Vickers and Maxim) are trash, and the factions that can build them spam mainlines instead because their HMG is unfit for purpose.

Give it good suppression, cut its damage however far you need to to balance that out.

Instant workable HMG.
19 Aug 2019, 14:35 PM
#39
avatar of PanzerFutz

Posts: 97

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Aug 2019, 09:59 AMGrim
How about after being set up for 15 seconds it gains a toggle ability to have higher suppression and firing arc but gets locked in place until the ability is toggled off.

A bit like how 'firing positions' works for the KV-2.


I like this idea. Give it a "Firing Positions" toggle with long set-up and cool-down times that allows it to behave like any other heavy MG. It would still need support to protect its flanks but, at least it would be able to deal with infantry blobs charging it head-on. Maybe even throw a single sand-bag in front of it, to display to the enemy that it's in "Firing Positions" mode but also to give the gun a bit better cover.
19 Aug 2019, 15:23 PM
#40
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3712 | Subs: 1



I like this idea. Give it a "Firing Positions" toggle with long set-up and cool-down times that allows it to behave like any other heavy MG. It would still need support to protect its flanks but, at least it would be able to deal with infantry blobs charging it head-on. Maybe even throw a single sand-bag in front of it, to display to the enemy that it's in "Firing Positions" mode but also to give the gun a bit better cover.

I had once suggested increased Supression when in green cover. Since cons can build it there would be no reason for a defensive position to not be able to have Supression but also not allow attack move to work well.
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