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Soviet September patch discussion

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15 Aug 2019, 07:00 AM
#81
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

Moderator hat on: you guys get a room for yourselves (PM). There's gonna be a lot of activity in this threads so please, try to up your game a bit and don't comment like you would in any other day in the balance section. What you guys are doing is just polluting the thread and making reading feedback harder.



Ontopic:

Just in case people don't understand the maxim change. Suppression against single squads is unchanged. What they are trying to accomplish is that a blob charging shoulder to shoulder should be easier to suppress.
Single squad or slightly spread blob won't care at all.


jump backJump back to quoted post15 Aug 2019, 06:20 AMSerrith
The main issue with the deathloop is when the model pushing the maxim is continually getting sniped most often due to small arms. When you say you can trigger the deathloop intentionally i assumed you meant you could somehow force your squads to target the correct model every time through some micro trick.
Any fool can throw a huge blob at an mg and wipe it before it can get out of range.

I do not think the 6 man weapon team is there to compensate for the deathloop otherwise why do soviet at guns and mortars also have 6 men? This is more of a Soviet themed thing.


My suggestion would be something along the lines of giving the maxim gunner a universal cover on retreat sort of like how at guns provide directional green cover to the crew.


Attack move and long range DPS. While i thikn the operator model tends to have a lower priority, an attack move makes the squad engage the first model they see, which in most of the cases is gonna be the guys behind the weapon. The rest is history.

Cover for support weapons don't help and neither they work. See the other thread.
15 Aug 2019, 08:45 AM
#82
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 2181 | Subs: 2

Defensive Tactics, Why do mines and anti-tank traps require 2 CP? This ability should be 0 CP and ideally still have the ability to build a bunker.
15 Aug 2019, 08:56 AM
#83
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474



The maxim mostly does not supress enough to prevent being naded frontaly. Grens pgrens volks obers etc. All can nade it frontaly 1v1 in a lot of scenario,s

This does not happen to the axis mg,s. They always supress fast enough.

and I said buff the suppression, hell im the first poster on the thread to ask for it, I’m just saying that gbem is being too much of a propagandist by saying that having 2 more men does not equal to more durability, yes it has deathloop but what is more likely to wipe from a nade or a mortar or a tank , a 6 men squad or a 4 men squad ?
15 Aug 2019, 09:05 AM
#84
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

The 6 man squad with the deathloop... a reliable wipe can easily be triggered using a nade or a mortar + a blob regardless of models...

Remember... when the deathloop starts it doesnt matter if it has 6 men or 4... all models will continue the animation loop till the MG is wiped
15 Aug 2019, 09:12 AM
#85
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1

If you just buff Maxim supression we are just going to see more Maxim spam. No one wants that obnovious shit. It´s one of the least fun things to play against.
15 Aug 2019, 09:16 AM
#86
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Aug 2019, 09:05 AMgbem
The 6 man squad with the deathloop... a reliable wipe can easily be triggered using a nade or a mortar + a blob regardless of models...

Remember... when the deathloop starts it doesnt matter if it has 6 men or 4... all models will continue the animation loop till the MG is wiped
again u need to hit the gunner are mortar laser guided now ? And no they can actually pick up the weapon they just need some luck
15 Aug 2019, 09:17 AM
#87
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

Maxim spam was a crutch not the core of the problem...

The main reason for it was that soviet core infantry (conscripts) were shit... and are still shit...


@stuglife

Mortars arent laser guided... but flamenades and riflenades allow for easy deathloops on the maxim... u dont even have to kill a model... all u need to do is damage then enough to start the loop...
15 Aug 2019, 09:17 AM
#88
avatar of Maret

Posts: 711

If you just buff Maxim supression we are just going to see more Maxim spam. No one wants that obnovious shit. It´s one of the least fun things to play against.

I suggested in this thread increase arc of fire to level of mg-42 and vickers and seriously boost near zone suppresion. While suppression in Far-mid and Near-Mid still weak, strong Near suppresion prevent all frontal nades.
Wider cone of fire make it more easier to play. Because i don't understand why for weakest in terms of suppresion HMG we have narrow cone. Narrow cone have .50 cal and dushka, but they supress much more better and it balance.
15 Aug 2019, 09:20 AM
#89
avatar of Maret

Posts: 711

Or if someone want to deal with Maxim question with final blow - replace maxim to vickers and give 4 man crew. Because even vickers better than maxim in current state.
15 Aug 2019, 09:23 AM
#90
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Aug 2019, 09:17 AMgbem
Maxim spam was a crutch not the core of the problem...

The main reason for it was that soviet core infantry (conscripts) were shit... and are still shit...


@stuglife

Mortars arent laser guided... but flamenades and riflenades allow for easy deathloops on the maxim... u dont even have to kill a model... all u need to do is damage then enough to start the loop...
rifle nade actually are really inconsistent, they either wipe or ticks the maxim
15 Aug 2019, 09:25 AM
#91
avatar of Maret

Posts: 711

rifle nade actually are really inconsistent, they either wipe or ticks the maxim

But at least you can throw it. See difference between what can be done and what can't? Better have chance to do, than don't have it at all.
15 Aug 2019, 09:37 AM
#92
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

rifle nade actually are really inconsistent, they either wipe or ticks the maxim


They are aggravated by yellow cover... but yes they are inconsistent... the flame nade on the other hand is very consistent at deathlooping maxims
15 Aug 2019, 09:38 AM
#93
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3102 | Subs: 2

Good slight buffs to Conscripts and Partisans. Glad so see some Commanders potentially getting back into the meta.

I know that Balance Team does not like it, but the Maxim should get a slight straight up suppression buff. Now the ability that no one ever uses has been buffed to more suppression, and now the AoE suppression gets better. But this does not help too much if it's hard to suppress even the first squad.

Maxim does not need nowhere near MG42 suppression, but a buff is needed so that one squad can't attack it frontally anymore.
aaa
15 Aug 2019, 09:41 AM
#94
avatar of aaa

Posts: 1486

Dont touch zis baragge. Its needed to be as is now to deal with camping abusers, mg spammers etc. Good zis with anti-mg function balances bad mg and bad mortar.

Also don't forget that barrage require muni. Its not like mortar that auto_fires for free. Muni for "health damage" is not a good deal. It should be able to kill models, decrew weapons, destroy weapon itself.

Cons upgrade better stay in t4. They are already decent. Complaining noobs (100% of them dont have playercard) just forget to use attack move.
15 Aug 2019, 09:43 AM
#95
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

Anyone that says conscripts are fine hasnt been around pre penal buff/post maxim nerf where the soviets had sub 45% winrate because conscripts suck soo badly
15 Aug 2019, 09:47 AM
#96
avatar of Maret

Posts: 711

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Aug 2019, 09:41 AMaaa
Cons upgrade better stay in t4. They are already decent. Complaining noobs (100% of them dont have playercard) just forget to use attack move.


I wonder why in recent 2vs2 champ, SU plays through penals almost every game - they forgot about A-move! Fools.
15 Aug 2019, 10:07 AM
#97
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Aug 2019, 09:47 AMMaret


I wonder why in recent 2vs2 champ, SU plays through penals almost every game - they forgot about A-move! Fools.



A-moving with Cons is probably the worst way to use them anyways. No idea what this guy is on about.
15 Aug 2019, 10:08 AM
#98
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3102 | Subs: 2

the cons changes are welcome but again does not fix their early problem and penals being so much better

partisan changes still fail to address the enormous reinforce cost, allow cons to merge in to them

still no changes to penal, so we will still see penal spam, they just made it easier to back tech for at guns if needed


Let's see how Cons fair now with Volks slightly nerfed. Cons are okay against Grenadiere, but Volks broke the balance. Could be enough actually.
Partisans now cost 26 to reinforce, so it's far from "enormous". You now pay as much as for normal mainline infantry. Can't say much about their performance though, I have rarely used them.
And Penals can't be spammed in the sense of bringing up extreme early game pressure. They cost 300 MP a piece, so the time to field 4 of them is quite long.
15 Aug 2019, 10:16 AM
#99
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2



Let's see how Cons fair now with Volks slightly nerfed. Cons are okay against Grenadiere, but Volks broke the balance. Could be enough actually.
Partisans now cost 26 to reinforce, so it's far from "enormous". You now pay as much as for normal mainline infantry. Can't say much about their performance though, I have rarely used them.
And Penals can't be spammed in the sense of bringing up extreme early game pressure. They cost 300 MP a piece, so the time to field 4 of them is quite long.


The nerf on Volks won't change the dynamic. If anything changes it, are the PPSH and 7th man on T3.
15 Aug 2019, 10:17 AM
#100
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

tbh unless the maxim is buffed to viability the cons vs grens dynamic will always be in favor of grens (unless the PPSH is involved) since the HMG42 is soo much better as a support weapon than the maxim...

earlier access to 7 man cons may prevent the reemergence of the maxim spam if the maxim were to be buffed to be a proper machinegun (at least vickers lvl of damage)... which would allow for the save buffing of the maxim to normal levels...
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