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USA September patch discussion

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20 Aug 2019, 09:09 AM
#161
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4003

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Aug 2019, 08:48 AMKatitof

Vet0 puma will do it as well, but I wanted to avoid the other dreaded by axis mains here on .org thing, the use of basic micro.
.... puma needs 6 shoots to kill Jackson, Jackson needs 3 to kill puma, it has more range more accuracy and it can actually bounce shoots at mid and long range

so no u can't beat Jackson with 1 puma with 2 yes ù

but that was beside the point


his arguments were all wrong
20 Aug 2019, 09:20 AM
#162
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13807 | Subs: 7

.... puma needs 6 shoots to kill Jackson, Jackson needs 3 to kill puma, it has more range more accuracy and it can actually bounce shoots at mid and long range

so no u can't beat Jackson with 1 puma with 2 yes ù

but that was beside the point


his arguments were all wrong

Why are you talking about range in scenario where puma gets a jump on its rear?
Puma shoots every 4 seconds, jackson every 6.
Puma will get 2 shots off before jackson and its turret will turn.
Jacksons rear armor can't bounce puma at any range.
Why do you think "getting a jump on X" means frontal fucking assault right in front of Xs gun?
20 Aug 2019, 09:36 AM
#163
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4003

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Aug 2019, 09:20 AMKatitof

Why are you talking about range in scenario where puma gets a jump on its rear?
Puma shoots every 4 seconds, jackson every 6.
Puma will get 2 shots off before jackson and its turret will turn.
Jacksons rear armor can't bounce puma at any range.
Why do you think "getting a jump on X" means frontal fucking assault right in front of Xs gun?
so it takes 8 seconds to rotate for the Jackson ?
and again the puma might miss with that accuracy stats
20 Aug 2019, 10:27 AM
#164
avatar of DerbyHat

Posts: 1026 | Subs: 1

Flanking a Jackson with a Puma sounds like an interesting way to throw the game. :D

The Jackson doesn't really have a problem reacting to those kind of threats, granted the Puma is acting on its own.
20 Aug 2019, 10:36 AM
#165
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 13807 | Subs: 7

so it takes 8 seconds to rotate for the Jackson ?
and again the puma might miss with that accuracy stats


Ballistic units in CoH2 shoot first, then reload.
Its always in that order.
You seem to be under the illusion puma when seeing its target needs to reload first and then and only then it can shoot.
20 Aug 2019, 10:40 AM
#166
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4003

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Aug 2019, 10:36 AMKatitof


Ballistic units in CoH2 shoot first, then reload.
Its always in that order.
You seem to be under the illusion puma when seeing its target needs to reload first and then and only then it can shoot.
ok, with 30 rotation rate and fast turret why would it take 4 + second to rotate ? and again it has horrendous accuracy stats at mid and long range
20 Aug 2019, 10:55 AM
#167
avatar of WAAAGH2000

Posts: 319

Maybe Fire up,flamethrower and flare can bundle together,and add 2 new ability to Rifle Company?
20 Aug 2019, 12:56 PM
#168
avatar of SupremeStefan

Posts: 872

Rifle company neeeds more stuff
Mod team pls.. do soomething
as i said before some kind of weaopon upgrade will be much better and more intresting than simple sandbags for rifles
20 Aug 2019, 14:23 PM
#169
avatar of Balanced_Gamer

Posts: 783

jump backJump back to quoted post19 Aug 2019, 23:38 PMArray


Sounds like a recipe for more blobbing


Actually that is true.

Maybe Echelons instead should provide since they stay a lot behind the action,

provide a booster to their support weapons.


Provides the USF AT gun with a minor boost in terms of penetration only. The more Echelons near AT guns, the better the penetration will be.

Solves in some ways their penetration, support AT gun issue.

USF AT gun is undeniably one of the best AT guns, best at dealing with lights most definitely and mediums.

Heavies, not so much. That is its major con. So this idea might help improve their chances.


When Echelons near a HMG, provides a reload boost. Something minor since their MG is great overall.


When Echelons near a small mortar, provides reload boost but when near a Pack Howizter, it provides instead better movement speed.



Just so Echelons can provide better and be somewhat useful even behind the action.
20 Aug 2019, 14:48 PM
#170
avatar of Lago

Posts: 2731

Rifle company neeeds more stuff
Mod team pls.. do soomething
as i said before some kind of weaopon upgrade will be much better and more intresting than simple sandbags for rifles


If you count turning an unsuable ability into a good one, they also gained Sprint.
20 Aug 2019, 15:20 PM
#171
avatar of Osinyagov
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 1153

I am confused with THREE medical abilities for medics. is it intended?
20 Aug 2019, 15:37 PM
#172
avatar of DerbyHat

Posts: 1026 | Subs: 1

I am confused with THREE medical abilities for medics. is it intended?


Wait, I thought it was a timed aura, what's D for?
20 Aug 2019, 15:52 PM
#173
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 3279 | Subs: 1



Wait, I thought it was a timed aura, what's D for?

Unheal. That's how we get ambulance team kills.
21 Aug 2019, 12:25 PM
#174
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 2610 | Subs: 1

I have few questions for the balance team:

1- Various units see their veterancy being improved but riflemen is still stuck with vet1 Atnade and nothing else. Is the balance team ok with riflemen being left to require vet2 to get a proper improvement on their stat? Why the option of merging Atnade with tech and giving a proper vet1 refinement for riflemen is discarded?

-2 At the same time riflemen are the least used mainline infantry (you don't build more than 3) and the only one squad carrying the Atnade for USF, on the other hand Ostheer and OKW can field 4 grenadiers or volksgrenadiers, Ostruppen or Pfuss and all of them carrying pfaust or are available after a short and linear teching. So the question why USF cannot fight light vehicle the same way they do, they are already less squads on the field with the atnade, is it not enough?

-3 Ambulance, I see the balance team is making effort into giving the 251 or Open truck healing mechanism or better one but the ambulance is still the worst vehicle in game and can be OS by anything on wheel. Why isn't possible to increase Ambulance health and give it some more acceleration? Or simply increase its health stat when deployed in base? Can the Ambulance match the stat of the Opel truck at the very least?

-4 Kubel is the bane of riflemen, if it catch you out of cover you bleeding like a stuff pig and at the same time for the same reason you can't push it. The kubel is being buffed and at the same time Rear Echelon are going to be worst vs it. How USF is going to be vs a said kubel push strat where Sturm are going to repair it faster than you can damage it.

Disclaimer: I don't have a negative opinion on OKW changes, if the balance team say they need it so be it. My concerns are on the impact vs USF
-5 OKW is receiving some changes early game in order to reduce their oppressing power. But the real impact is between 8 and 10 seconds for the 3rd volks to hit the field on the starting manpower 20 reduction and volks mp price increase (4 volks start = 40mp). On the other hand we got faster truck deployment with a much lower MP cost (-30 manpower per truck = 90 manpower in total) and 5 fuel more on bank at start. Mathematic tells me its a +30mp and +5 fuel in total for OKW.
Better Kubel, faster and better Sturm vet1, Better and cheaper by 10 fuel SDFK and better LEIG. SDFK is hitting the field 10 fuel earlier now, what about USF counter available at that time, I mean the atnade?
So how USF is supposed to evolve around those changes that looks like more buff than early game nerfs except for the raketen.

-6 USF Officers used to be crutch units and disposed from that status to be today marginally out of the box better riflemen squads. Their only crutch today is that they don't need to wait for weapon unlock to get 1 BAR or 1 Zook. Isn't possible to revert those changes?
Ostheer gets their first pzgren at the same time and don't need to pay upgrade to make it crutch. OKW is already on a better position with its oppressive early game. So why can't those officers get back their weapons or being able to chose them for free?


The last one:
-7 Why did it require a Top player's comment on a popular stream for the balance team to quickly patch the patch (olol) with something about riflemen. Has it been done to please that Top player or the balance team suddenly acknowledge there is something wrong with the unit and faction.

21 Aug 2019, 13:36 PM
#175
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 1983 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Aug 2019, 12:25 PMEsxile
Has it been done to please that Top player


Yeah we decided to risk ruining balance for hundreds of thousands of players just to please one player, and quickly came up with some stuff on the spot. Yolo :banana:


To be frank, your questions seem to come mostly from a "grass is greener for the red faction" mentality, but I'll do my best to answer them.


jump backJump back to quoted post21 Aug 2019, 12:25 PMEsxile
1- Various units see their veterancy being improved but riflemen is still stuck with vet1 Atnade and nothing else. Is the balance team ok with riflemen being left to require vet2 to get a proper improvement on their stat?

Because the scaling of Riflemen is fine as is. They are strong and versatile mainline infantry that get better veterancy and upgrades than others. No need to fix something that isn't broken.


jump backJump back to quoted post21 Aug 2019, 12:25 PMEsxile
-2 At the same time riflemen are the least used mainline infantry (you don't build more than 3) and the only one squad carrying the Atnade for USF, on the other hand Ostheer and OKW can field 4 grenadiers or volksgrenadiers, Ostruppen or Pfuss and all of them carrying pfaust or are available after a short and linear teching. So the question why USF cannot fight light vehicle the same way they do, they are already less squads on the field with the atnade, is it not enough?

Because the USF have armor piercing HMGs, cheap bazooka squads, an officer squad with a techless bazooka upgrade, the Stuart, the 37mm on the AA halftrack, and the best stock ATG of all factions to fight light vehicles with. It's asymmetric balance and we'd like to keep it where we can.


jump backJump back to quoted post21 Aug 2019, 12:25 PMEsxile
-3 Ambulance, I see the balance team is making effort into giving the 251 or Open truck healing mechanism or better one but the ambulance is still the worst vehicle in game and can be OS by anything on wheel. Why isn't possible to increase Ambulance health and give it some more acceleration? Or simply increase its health stat when deployed in base?

Giving the ambulance additional health or durability in base was looked into but didn't seem possible. Giving the ambulance increased durability itself is a hard no because a forward ambulance rush is really strong in team games and it needs to be vulnerable to balance that. It sucks that it's so easy to dive in the main base, but there doesn't seem to be a way to prevent that. At least an evacuated medics squad will now be significantly more useful, but you seem to have ignored that change.


jump backJump back to quoted post21 Aug 2019, 12:25 PMEsxile
-4 Kubel is the bane of riflemen, if it catch you out of cover you bleeding like a stuff pig and at the same time for the same reason you can't push it. The kubel is being buffed and at the same time Rear Echelon are going to be worst vs it. How USF is going to be vs a said kubel push strat where Sturm are going to repair it faster than you can damage it.

There's plenty of things that can help counter a Kubel. M2HBs, an M20, an AAHT, the Rear Echelon light mines or just get a blob going, avoid it or fight it from green cover. It's okay that certain units require a certain effort in order to go down, that's not any different for Universal Carriers or M3 Scout Cars for example. If a Kubel is giving you trouble, adjust your strategy.


jump backJump back to quoted post21 Aug 2019, 12:25 PMEsxile
-6 USF Officers used to be crutch units and disposed from that status to be today marginally out of the box better riflemen squads. Their only crutch today is that they don't need to wait for weapon unlock to get 1 BAR or 1 Zook.

Get free squads with teching and then complain they aren't good enough? Yes, the Officer squads are a double edged sword, at least the second one, but they are still better Riflemen in most aspects, because of their (essentially free) cost and they also get 1 Thompson with pretty decent DPS. The fact that they can get an upgrade without the weapon racks tech is great for bridging the gap. I know a lot of players consider double Officer strats to be borderline overpowered because of how manpower economy efficient they are.


jump backJump back to quoted post21 Aug 2019, 12:25 PMEsxile
-7 Why did it require a Top player's comment on a popular stream for the balance team to quickly patch the patch (olol) with something about riflemen. Has it been done to please that Top player or the balance team suddenly acknowledge there is something wrong with the unit and faction.

The changes for Riflemen and RET were already discussed way earlier, but we weren't entirely convinced they were needed and we initially wanted to wait until we saw the full extend of the OKW changes and the impact on USF's early game before changing USF's early game at the same time. DevM's comment was only just one needle in the haystack of initial feedback that made us just tip over in the other direction and include the changes in the follow up patch.
21 Aug 2019, 14:22 PM
#176
avatar of Stark

Posts: 562 | Subs: 1

Rifle company neeeds more stuff
Mod team pls.. do soomething
as i said before some kind of weaopon upgrade will be much better and more intresting than simple sandbags for rifles


Well, couple months ago we had a huge commander proposal action. There should be some interesting abilities/units there, it just needs someone to look into it. Defensive positions make sense in that commander and fits the theme but they already available in 2 other commanders. Personally i think something fresh would be highly welcome.
21 Aug 2019, 14:43 PM
#177
avatar of VonIvan

Posts: 2396 | Subs: 22

Make Rangers 2 CP, considering all other elite inf is 2 CP now except falls/airborne
21 Aug 2019, 14:53 PM
#178
avatar of DerbyHat

Posts: 1026 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Aug 2019, 14:43 PMVonIvan
Make Rangers 2 CP, considering all other elite inf is 2 CP now except falls/airborne


^
21 Aug 2019, 15:40 PM
#179
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 2610 | Subs: 1



The changes for Riflemen and RET were already discussed way earlier, but we weren't entirely convinced they were needed and we initially wanted to wait until we saw the full extend of the OKW changes and the impact on USF's early game before changing USF's early game at the same time. DevM's comment was only just one needle in the haystack of initial feedback that made us just tip over in the other direction and include the changes in the follow up patch.


So you waited that a top player complain about it. If no top player would have say a word we would never have seen anything from it. Because your haystack of initial feedback wasn't really supported by evidences, just feeling.

The pinnacle of USF fanboyism I have to say, get free squads with teching and then complain they aren't good enough. Yes, the Officer squads are a double edged sword, at least the second one, but they are still better Riflemen in most aspects, because of their (essentially free) cost and they also get 1 Thompson with pretty decent DPS. The fact that they can get an upgrade without the weapon racks tech is great for bridging the gap. I know a lot of players consider double Officer strats to be borderline overpowered because of how manpower economy efficient they are.


You named it double edge sword. Which other faction is subject with that with their free stuff. Let me think about it. Are grenades and pfaust a double edge sword?
You consider two officers is a great manpower economy but how much pfaut, grenade, lmgs, stgs, shreck and t3 auto cannon cost in reality? aren't they also a great economy knowing other factions have to pay to unlock them? Don't miss interpret what I say, every faction except soviet get free stuff and I hardly find it an argument to justify this particular case.

Other than that, the way you enumerating USF stock roaster to justify your decision make me wonder if you know that other factions also have access to different tools. The plenty of things that can help killing a kubel in your list are all hitting the field at around 5 minutes and funny enough but you may find that the OKW player did also build stuff to increase the pressure at that time. But at least we agree on one thing: you didn't mention riflemen on your list.
21 Aug 2019, 16:01 PM
#180
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 1983 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post21 Aug 2019, 15:40 PMEsxile
So you waited that a top player complain about it. If no top player would have say a word we would never have seen anything from it. Because your haystack of initial feedback wasn't really supported by evidences, just feeling.


I'm quite sure I know my own actions and reasons better than you do. Not sure why you'd choose to convince yourself of anything else, but I don't really care either since you've proven you can't ever bring up a neutral argument about anything related to USF and I have no interest in keeping up a senseless discussion.
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