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Riflemen need a buff or Volks need a nerf?

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10 Aug 2019, 02:44 AM
#61
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Aug 2019, 02:35 AMAlphrum


for 30mp more, you have similar long range DPS whilst having superior mid and close range dps. and u somehow saying that proves volks OP? my god what the hell

Volks actually have slightly higher dps at ranges beyond 20... but when compared to the gren or the conscript for a measely 10mp their performance is far closer to rifles than cons or grens


jump backJump back to quoted post10 Aug 2019, 02:35 AMAlphrum

You say remove stg and buff vet, so essentially your guna have volks that cant upgrade non doc? you mean like cons who have great vet but no upgrade?, they guna become worthless.


Soo someone agrees that conscripts are useless.... just nerf the volks price and remove the sandbag..
10 Aug 2019, 03:01 AM
#62
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3053


Could be, I don't know. It was more a feeling that I have. Where did you get the stats/knowledge from?



I don't want Riflemen to be buffed, they're alright the way they are. It's just Volks and IS that are overperforming. Problem against OKW is the extremely high early game pressure by Sturmpioneers that 1v1 your Riflemen and cheaper Volks, that leads to high map presence of OKW. Problem against Volks especially is that you need to close in, so you have a higher chance to drop a model first which negates your close range advantage. Otherwise you can slug it out long range with 50% chance of losing and 50% chance of winning, but then OKW was able to pin down a unit of yours that did cost 30 MP more to build and 3 MP per model more to reinforce, so he traded well even if he loses the fight. This becomes worse with StGs, an upgrade option that OKW gets for free, while USF needs to sidetech, putting them further behind on MP and negates fuel advantage.

UKF does not have the problem. First because IS are too strong as well, and second because they CAN slug it out long range. So OKW needs to move and starts dropping models first.

Tone down Volks slightly (general nerf, upgrade nerf or whatever) and Riflemen are fine, as they're decently balanced against Grens. IS should be discussed in another thread.

+1

That is exactly the issue rifles face in the early game.

I know I've said it already but worth repeating that it's exacerbated by the fact that volks get significantly tougher (by early game standards) than rifles at vet1, while rifles get no stat boosts.
10 Aug 2019, 08:38 AM
#63
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Aug 2019, 02:22 AMgbem
Actually that chart kinda proves volks are OP... the fact that they have superior long dps to rifles past range 20 while costing 30mp less is a huge difference... plus they get sandbags


It might surprise you, but being more expensive does not equal having to be better at literally everything. Certain units still have ideal engagement ranges because it makes the game tactically interesting.

6,4% better DPS for Volks at max range while Rifles have 3% better target size means this is basically neglectable, but Riflemen have way better close and close to mid range DPS. They are well worth their 280 manpower, especially considering their superior scaling in the mid and late game.

10 Aug 2019, 08:47 AM
#64
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Aug 2019, 02:35 AMAlphrum


for 30mp more, you have similar long range DPS whilst having superior mid and close range dps. and u somehow saying that proves volks OP? my god what the hell

@stug life,

You say remove stg and buff vet, so essentially your guna have volks that cant upgrade non doc? you mean like cons who have great vet but no upgrade?, they guna become worthless.
no give them the mp40 upgrade from fire doc , u know like vcoh
10 Aug 2019, 10:03 AM
#65
avatar of Jilet

Posts: 556

Problem is IS and Penals overperforming compared to Rifleman. I don't get why people want to faceroll axis just like those two ridicilous powerhouses. Rifles are probably the the best matched infantry to axis infantry (Like seriously) .

But when you compare them to other allied infantry they are lackluster. That's why in 2v2's Brit-Soviet composition is being choosen.
10 Aug 2019, 10:05 AM
#66
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979



It might surprise you, but being more expensive does not equal having to be better at literally everything. Certain units still have ideal engagement ranges because it makes the game tactically interesting.

6,4% better DPS for Volks at max range while Rifles have 3% better target size means this is basically neglectable, but Riflemen have way better close and close to mid range DPS. They are well worth their 280 manpower, especially considering their superior scaling in the mid and late game.



rifles are well worth 280mp... but when volks are compared to cons or grens volks simply beat both waay too cost efficiently for a measly 10mp... volks should be 260mp in order to balance costs with grens and cons....

it should also help alleviate the monotonous OKW build of volks spam which continues to plague matches to this day....
10 Aug 2019, 10:09 AM
#67
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

if u really, really want to nerf volks and not the STG only, reduce their close and mid dps curve so cons and rifle will be even better vs them at their best range, increasing the price will not change the match up
10 Aug 2019, 10:52 AM
#68
avatar of Nagato

Posts: 19

Permanently Banned
jump backJump back to quoted post10 Aug 2019, 10:03 AMJilet
Problem is IS and Penals overperforming compared to Rifleman. I don't get why people want to faceroll axis just like those two ridicilous powerhouses. Rifles are probably the the best matched infantry to axis infantry (Like seriously) .

But when you compare them to other allied infantry they are lackluster. That's why in 2v2's Brit-Soviet composition is being choosen.


Lmao Penals, the units in a faction with less starting resources and weakest starting unit (CE) that you need to build T1 for and pay more,wait longer for are overperforming compared to T0, cheaper Riflemen? Not to forget Penals don't scale like Rifles do with weapon pick ups


I guess Obers are overperforming compared to Riflemen too...
And mg-42 to maxim....
10 Aug 2019, 10:57 AM
#69
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Aug 2019, 10:03 AMJilet
Problem is IS and Penals overperforming compared to Rifleman.

And your argument to support that thesis is.... ?

Because brits have much lower infantry presence then USK and penals are not only most expensive mainline inf at 300mp, they also come latest, are always outnumbered and have worst scaling, yes, they have good vet, but they don't get weapon upgrades and their RA vet is extremely low compared to any other inf in game.

IS might be overperforming out of cover compared to their original intended dynamics, but that's addressed next patch if I understood correctly, penals are pure L2P issue.


I don't get why people want to faceroll axis just like those two ridicilous powerhouses. Rifles are probably the the best matched infantry to axis infantry (Like seriously).

They don't - they simply want units to perform accordingly to their cost. Volks cost 250 and perform as they were 270. Rifles themselves are pretty fine actually.

But when you compare them to other allied infantry they are lackluster. That's why in 2v2's Brit-Soviet composition is being choosen.

Actually, compared to rifles and tommies, its penals who end up as luckluster as while they are excellent out of the gate, they slow down with below average late game scaling(vet alone vs vet+weapons everyone else but cons get).
10 Aug 2019, 11:07 AM
#70
avatar of Jilet

Posts: 556

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Aug 2019, 10:52 AMNagato


Lmao Penals, the units in a faction with less starting resources and weakest starting unit (CE) that you need to build T1 for and pay more,wait longer for are overperforming compared to T0, cheaper Riflemen? Not to forget Penals don't scale like Rifles do with weapon pick ups


I guess Obers are overperforming compared to Riflemen too...
And mg-42 to maxim....


Yeah penals definently don't scale with PRTS.
Talking about Obers they come way to late for an infantry with ridicilous reinforce cost and 10 popcap.
For MG-42 yes is overperforms in terms of suppression and arc but you can always go 2 maxims and use them like infantry don't for get MGs continue to fire even if they are pinned.
10 Aug 2019, 11:11 AM
#71
avatar of Nagato

Posts: 19

Permanently Banned
jump backJump back to quoted post10 Aug 2019, 11:07 AMJilet


Yeah penals definently don't scale with PRTS.
Talking about Obers they come way to late for an infantry with ridicilous reinforce cost and 10 popcap.
For MG-42 yes is overperforms in terms of suppression and arc but you can always go 2 maxims and use them like infantry don't for get MGs continue to fire even if they are pinned.


Yeah, PTSR penals scale super well after you buy an upgrade that makes you lose all anti-infantry potential so u can kill those pesky light vehicles late game and become a satchel bot. Epic!

Also it's not 2014 anymore.
10 Aug 2019, 11:13 AM
#72
avatar of Jilet

Posts: 556

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Aug 2019, 10:57 AMKatitof

And your argument to support that thesis is.... ?

Because brits have much lower infantry presence then USK and penals are not only most expensive mainline inf at 300mp, they also come latest, are always outnumbered and have worst scaling, yes, they have good vet, but they don't get weapon upgrades and their RA vet is extremely low compared to any other inf in game.


I think you meant penals.

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Aug 2019, 10:57 AMKatitof

IS might be overperforming out of cover compared to their original intended dynamics, but that's addressed next patch if I understood correctly, penals are pure L2P issue.

I will agree on Brits. But for penals it facerolls any other infantry at the start of the game UNLESS they face the MG and if soviet player has a piece of brain then he/she will definently not run right into it eh ?

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Aug 2019, 10:57 AMKatitof

They don't - they simply want units to perform accordingly to their cost. Volks cost 250 and perform as they were 270. Rifles themselves are pretty fine actually.

Actually I am all in for Volks being 260-270 or a starting MP reduction but I was talking about wanting a Volks DPS nerf or something like that.

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Aug 2019, 10:57 AMKatitof

Actually, compared to rifles and tommies, its penals who end up as luckluster as while they are excellent out of the gate, they slow down with below average late game scaling(vet alone vs vet+weapons everyone else but cons get).


That is actually out of the topic but the thing is exactly what you said. Their early presence is so excellent that they gain the map control and that map control transitions into better units, late game stuff etc.
10 Aug 2019, 11:15 AM
#73
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

penals are an interesting bunch... they overperform soo hard at the start of the game yet underperform soo hard in the end... their performance needs to be flattened to prevent them from being an earlygame stomp/lategame fail duality of a unit...
10 Aug 2019, 11:17 AM
#74
avatar of Jilet

Posts: 556

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Aug 2019, 11:11 AMNagato


Yeah, PTSR penals scale super well after you buy an upgrade that makes you lose all anti-infantry potential so u can kill those pesky light vehicles late game and become a satchel bot. Epic!

Also it's not 2014 anymore.


I do not imply that they scale super well. Their early power transforms into map control map control transforms into teching faster etc. You are misjugding my man. And we are really going out of topic. I dream a better world with better cons where penal terminators don't exist.
10 Aug 2019, 11:18 AM
#75
avatar of Nagato

Posts: 19

Permanently Banned
jump backJump back to quoted post10 Aug 2019, 11:17 AMJilet


I do not imply that they scale super well. Their early power transforms into map control map control transforms into teching faster etc. You are misjugding my man. And we are really going out of topic. I dream a better world with better cons where penal terminators don't exist.


As do I but as the dev team has pointed out it won't happen since they hate Soviets.

But to wrap it up, Penals get outnumbered early game because they come late and cost more.
if you fight 1v1 against Penals then sure you're going to lose.
10 Aug 2019, 11:21 AM
#76
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Aug 2019, 10:05 AMgbem
but when volks are compared to cons or grens volks simply beat both waay too cost efficiently for a measly 10mp....


It is unfair to straight up compare Volksgrenadiers to Conscripts or Grenadiers.

OKW has been designed with worse support weapons, so Volksgrenadiers are meant to be able to fight better independently than their counterparts. They are meant to be slightly more cost effective than other infantry.

Conscripts and especially Grenadiers however, are designed to be supplemented by support weapons.
10 Aug 2019, 11:22 AM
#77
avatar of Jilet

Posts: 556

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Aug 2019, 11:18 AMNagato


As do I but as the dev team has pointed out it won't happen since they hate Soviets.

But to wrap it up, Penals get outnumbered early game because they come late and cost more.
if you fight 1v1 against Penals then sure you're going to lose.


I really want to continue this argument but we are contaminating this thread maybe open a new one and talk there ?
10 Aug 2019, 11:50 AM
#78
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979



OKW has been designed with worse support weapons, so Volksgrenadiers are meant to be able to fight better independently than their counterparts. They are meant to be slightly more cost effective than other infantry.


laughs in maxim
10 Aug 2019, 11:57 AM
#79
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Aug 2019, 11:50 AMgbem
laughs in maxim


The Maxim does well enough when it's supported by infantry.
More importantly, it and the mortar are available to support Conscripts way sooner than the HMG 34 and the ISG are available to support Volksgrenadiers. The point still stands.
10 Aug 2019, 12:02 PM
#80
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979



The Maxim does well enough when it's supported by infantry.
More importantly, it and the mortar are available to support Conscripts way sooner than the HMG 34 and the ISG are available to support Volksgrenadiers.


the MG-34 is a far superior machinegun due to its suppression arc and lack of a deathloop in contrast to the maxim which has none of those advantages...

more importantly the volksgrenadier is a far better and more efficient support infantry by virtue of being better at completely decimating swathes of conscripts simply by outclassing them... not to mention that the ISG was buffed to deal as much damage as a mortar and was given smoke rounds... plus OKW gets a field HQ and an FRP to support weaponteam based strategies....

and lets not forget that before the penals were buffed the soviets relied on T2 + conscripts to get them through the game............... and they were consistently the worst performing faction bar none... which hems in the point that T2 + conscript is simply uncompetitive vs volkspam... as for conscript changes theres of course another forum for that... but one can see volks are simply too good for their pricing
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