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Riflemen need a buff or Volks need a nerf?

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9 Aug 2019, 18:19 PM
#41
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3968



I don't get how you can spend this entire thread arguing with people when you agree that the StG needs to go. That is a nerf to volks and you spend the entire time criticizing OP

He usually deserves the criticism, but take a break every once in a while
he is asking for a base nerf or buff to units, not a nerf to stgs

quote: As far as I can tell this just means Riflemen preform poorly at both long and short ranges. I mean how do you tell what "mid-range" even is?

BARs aren't even all that great. Riflmen don't hold territory well at all.


he does deserve crit as it's the 3rd time we post dps curve, and he just ignores it once again
and keep feeding the propaganda of the ubermech volks and the virgin rifles, when all it's in his head canon
9 Aug 2019, 18:20 PM
#42
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3968

I've played more USF recently to find out how riflemen trade, since I also thought they were a very decent unit. Feelings are a little bit more mixed now.
Initially, they trade alright in early game. You pay more, but get more damage close range and the balance seems fine.
Problem comes when Volks upgrade to StGs, because they get incredibly efficient vs Riflemen. Maybe it's also a combo of StG upgrade and the vet bonus difference at the early/mid game, hard to tell apart.
But to trade efficiently, you basically MUST side tech weapon racks which nullifies the fuel advantage in starting resources you have over OKW. Also I'm not sure if one BAR is enough then, I get the feeleing that StG Volks and one BAR Rifles are somewhat ewual, maybe still an advantage for Volks. Still, for 15 mun more you trade at least model for model, so way betfer MP trade and MP concentration.

This comes on top of the stronger Sturmpio start for OKW which OKW can use to even out their resource disadvantage, combined with good map presence of the cheaper Volks.

Then basically your sherman comes out at the same time OKW has a P4, meaning that you're better off buying the Jackson right away since your AT gun does not help much vs OKW P4 and you don't have mines.

So to play against OKW you're not allowed to make many mistakes, ozherwise you'll not make it into late game where USF gets some very good stuff.
2 stg < 1 bar dps this not even counting the extra m1 garand that rifle keep
9 Aug 2019, 18:26 PM
#43
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 553


You rarely see the matchup anymore, but I thought Cons vs Grenadiere is still fine. Although debated Penals are also alright. Also Grenadiere vs Riflemen is not THAT far off. it's just Volks and IS that are overperforming



I agree - right now.

But if riflemen were buffed (or made cheaper), they'd trade better with grens (especially mid/late with double bars or M1919), which means that OST would need an adjustment as well... which leads to the problem I listed before.
9 Aug 2019, 19:21 PM
#44
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3968

the problem people have is the stg and the early flood of volks, cut stating mp of okw and replace stgs with mp40 package from fire doc, buff the volks vet accordingly, so they can survive till close range (like cons with 40% ra)
9 Aug 2019, 20:03 PM
#45
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 492

2 stg < 1 bar dps this not even counting the extra m1 garand that rifle keep

Could be, I don't know. It was more a feeling that I have. Where did you get the stats/knowledge from?




I agree - right now.

But if riflemen were buffed (or made cheaper), they'd trade better with grens (especially mid/late with double bars or M1919), which means that OST would need an adjustment as well... which leads to the problem I listed before.


I don't want Riflemen to be buffed, they're alright the way they are. It's just Volks and IS that are overperforming. Problem against OKW is the extremely high early game pressure by Sturmpioneers that 1v1 your Riflemen and cheaper Volks, that leads to high map presence of OKW. Problem against Volks especially is that you need to close in, so you have a higher chance to drop a model first which negates your close range advantage. Otherwise you can slug it out long range with 50% chance of losing and 50% chance of winning, but then OKW was able to pin down a unit of yours that did cost 30 MP more to build and 3 MP per model more to reinforce, so he traded well even if he loses the fight. This becomes worse with StGs, an upgrade option that OKW gets for free, while USF needs to sidetech, putting them further behind on MP and negates fuel advantage.

UKF does not have the problem. First because IS are too strong as well, and second because they CAN slug it out long range. So OKW needs to move and starts dropping models first.

Tone down Volks slightly (general nerf, upgrade nerf or whatever) and Riflemen are fine, as they're decently balanced against Grens. IS should be discussed in another thread.
9 Aug 2019, 20:10 PM
#46
avatar of Mr.Flush

Posts: 447

How do bars work? Do they snipe single models or do they spread out their damage throughout the enemy squad?
9 Aug 2019, 20:19 PM
#47
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 492

They target a single model, but have a strange spray mechanic where they can reroll missed shots to hit the other models of the squad.
Don't know how it's calculated though.
9 Aug 2019, 20:29 PM
#48
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3968

1 the is no recoil or spray mechanic it got debunked
2 got my stats from https://www.coh2db.com/stats/#86
9 Aug 2019, 20:39 PM
#49
avatar of Mr.Flush

Posts: 447

1 the is no recoil or spray mechanic it got debunked
2 got my stats from https://www.coh2db.com/stats/#86


What difference between focus fire false and true?
9 Aug 2019, 21:02 PM
#50
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3968



What difference between focus fire false and true?
o don’t remember but u should check the cruzz the more u know thread
9 Aug 2019, 21:42 PM
#51
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 492

1 the is no recoil or spray mechanic it got debunked
2 got my stats from https://www.coh2db.com/stats/#86

1. Good to know that.
2. Looks alright, although the site is unfortunately very outdated. As I said it was a feeling I had, maybe it then stems also partially from vet boni, or maybe I'm just wrong. Just to be sure: Does anyone know if those weapons had major changes in the last two years?
9 Aug 2019, 21:56 PM
#52
avatar of Smiling Tiger

Posts: 207

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Aug 2019, 15:14 PMCODGUY


Why do you act personally offended everytime I feel like pointing out the major strengths I see in the Axis factions and the major weaknesses I see in the Allied factions? It's obvious by your name and profile pic you like Axis. That's fine, nothing wrong with that but you take it as a personal insult and act like I should be banned just for stating an opinion.


Stug Life (the phrase not the user) is a common WW2 meme and says absolutely nothing about any potential bias of the person using it, it's just a funny meme name just like it's close relative Hetzers gonna Hetz. Using the same awful logic we could say that anybody who picks a unit as their profile pic must be biased towards the faction that said unit belongs to.

Also you don't just state opinions, you state things and act like they are facts, such as rifles being bad at close and long range, which is objectively wrong.
9 Aug 2019, 21:57 PM
#53
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 1954 | Subs: 3

2. Looks alright, although the site is unfortunately very outdated.


The site was updated around this time last year (after the Spring Balance Patch).
Only a handful of unit stats have changed since then.
9 Aug 2019, 21:57 PM
#54
avatar of EffenNewbie

Posts: 1287

Could there be another option, like changing the Sturmpio? It is more responsible than either Rifles or Volks for the unbalance between USF and OKW in the first few minutes of the match. After about 8-10 (at most) minutes, the Sturmpio goes from being too powerful to irrelevant.
9 Aug 2019, 22:20 PM
#55
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3968


1. Good to know that.
2. Looks alright, although the site is unfortunately very outdated. As I said it was a feeling I had, maybe it then stems also partially from vet boni, or maybe I'm just wrong. Just to be sure: Does anyone know if those weapons had major changes in the last two years?
no, but u can just CTRL + f in the patch notes pages
9 Aug 2019, 22:21 PM
#56
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 3968



Stug Life (the phrase not the user) is a common WW2 meme and says absolutely nothing about any potential bias of the person using it, it's just a funny meme name just like it's close relative Hetzers gonna Hetz. Using the same awful logic we could say that anybody who picks a unit as their profile pic must be biased towards the faction that said unit belongs to.

Also you don't just state opinions, you state things and act like they are facts, such as rifles being bad at close and long range, which is objectively wrong.
just like "hans get the flamer wnefer"
9 Aug 2019, 22:56 PM
#57
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 1676

jump backJump back to quoted post9 Aug 2019, 06:47 AMCODGUY
I know I'm not the only one pretty surprised at how poorly Riflemen preform...

Why has this never ever been discussed before?
I think we should give Riflemen something new to become useful... Like T0 200Mp mini Nukes... yeah.
#USFNEVEROP

Whats the whole point of this thread apart from ranting?
/thread
10 Aug 2019, 02:17 AM
#58
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 134

I think Rifleman are fine. The issue I feel is how expensive BAR's are. Could use a slight cost decrease.
10 Aug 2019, 02:22 AM
#59
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1341

NO they are priece fairly, what do want to have better dps better RA better vet better weapon all at the same cost ?
sanders already explained to u the biased boys why


Actually that chart kinda proves volks are OP... the fact that they have superior long dps to rifles past range 20 while costing 30mp less is a huge difference... plus they get sandbags
10 Aug 2019, 02:35 AM
#60
avatar of Alphrum

Posts: 583

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Aug 2019, 02:22 AMgbem


Actually that chart kinda proves volks are OP... the fact that they have superior long dps to rifles past range 20 while costing 30mp less is a huge difference... plus they get sandbags


for 30mp more, you have similar long range DPS whilst having superior mid and close range dps. and u somehow saying that proves volks OP? my god what the hell

@stug life,

You say remove stg and buff vet, so essentially your guna have volks that cant upgrade non doc? you mean like cons who have great vet but no upgrade?, they guna become worthless.
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