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Riflemen need a buff or Volks need a nerf?

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10 Aug 2019, 19:32 PM
#101
avatar of Riley

Posts: 206

Axis players are just fun.
> Given the price of grenadiers 240 mp
> powerfull LMG for 60 muni (better then doctrine m1919 for 70 muni )
> the best faust in the first minutes of the game
> first aid kit
> can build bunkers

"But they are not in t0"
"I want two lmg"
Extreme fanaticism. Fans of the easy game.
Perhaps this is the Ostheer worst faction in tournaments?

Let im start to cry, that usf mg is not in t0? :D
10 Aug 2019, 19:34 PM
#102
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4334

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Aug 2019, 19:32 PMRiley
Axis players are just fun.
> Given the price of grenadiers 240 mp
> powerfull LMG for 60 muni (better then doctrine m1919 for 70 muni )
> the best faust in the first minutes of the game
> first aid kit
> can build bunkers

"But they are not in t0"
"I want two lmg"
Extreme fanaticism. Fans of the easy game.
Perhaps this is the Ostheer worst faction in tournaments?

Let im start to cry, that usf mg is not in t0? :D
doesn't usf have a tier 0 mortar ? and isn't the cal 50 much better ?

nobody said they want 2 lmg did u smoke or drink before coming to the forum ?


and wait a second are u saying the green are op too now, volks, green every axis main line is op ?
10 Aug 2019, 19:39 PM
#103
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 899

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Aug 2019, 19:32 PMRiley
Axis players are just fun.
> Given the price of grenadiers 240 mp
> powerfull LMG for 60 muni (better then doctrine m1919 for 70 muni )
> the best faust in the first minutes of the game
> first aid kit
> can build bunkers

"But they are not in t0"
"I want two lmg"
Extreme fanaticism. Fans of the easy game.
Perhaps this is the Ostheer worst faction in tournaments?

Let im start to cry, that usf mg is not in t0? :D


There's some pretty good reasons as to why they're like that, but you seem to have missed those posts. And nobody actually "wants" 2x LMGs on grens, it would be fun, but horrendously overpowered. There's a difference between 'silly fun' and 'actual balance suggestions'.

10 Aug 2019, 19:41 PM
#104
avatar of Riley

Posts: 206

doesn't usf have a tier 0 mortar ? and isn't the cal 50 much better ?

nobody said they want 2 lmg did u smoke or drink before coming to the forum ?



"the cal 50 much better???" Then mg42?? :lolol::lolol::lolol::lolol:

whose angle is almost 170 degrees with instant suppression? The main objective of the machine gun is to control the territory, and here are three key parameters:
1) assembly time
2) angle of defeat
3) Suppression
And Mg42 is the best mg in the game.

You really deserve to be completely ignored. Especially after such words. I thought I was not talking to a complete fanatic.
10 Aug 2019, 19:47 PM
#105
avatar of Riley

Posts: 206



There's some pretty good reasons as to why they're like that, but you seem to have missed those posts. And nobody actually "wants" 2x LMGs on grens, it would be fun, but horrendously overpowered. There's a difference between 'silly fun' and 'actual balance suggestions'.



But when the grenadiers (240 mp and lmg 60 muni) and the Riflemans (280 and doctrine lmg 70 muni) meet against each other, the grenadiers more often win.
10 Aug 2019, 19:51 PM
#106
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4334

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Aug 2019, 19:41 PMRiley


"the cal 50 much better???" Then mg42?? :lolol::lolol::lolol::lolol:

whose angle is almost 170 degrees with instant suppression? The main objective of the machine gun is to control the territory, and here are three key parameters:
1) assembly time
2) angle of defeat
3) Suppression
And Mg42 is the best mg in the game.

You really deserve to be completely ignored. Especially after such words. I thought I was not talking to a complete fanatic.
the cal 50 they calculated the times, cal 50 is the fastest

the cal 50 has instant set u can a move it almost like the old maxim (which was the most op mg in the game as it worked as main line inf)

btw mg 42 Suppression

Amount
0.012
AOE suppression
0.0096
cal 50
Amount
0.054
AOE suppression
0.0432

im fanatic cause i know stats ? that's new, i guess u are gonna call me fake news next ?
10 Aug 2019, 19:54 PM
#107
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4334

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Aug 2019, 19:47 PMRiley


But when the grenadiers (240 mp and lmg 60 muni) and the Riflemans (280 and doctrine lmg 70 muni) meet against each other, the grenadiers more often win.
no, while green lose 1/4 of their dps for the lmg 42 the rifle lose only 1/5 of their dps for the cal 30, at max range it's up to rng (but i think rifle will win thanks to the 80 more hp) but at mid and close rifle beat them easily with cal 30

abd u are free to pick up a bar if u want too, or put the cal 30 on cheap RE
10 Aug 2019, 19:55 PM
#108
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 1091 | Subs: 1


btw im comparing the tier 1 to buying tier 1, don't try to flip the argument, green are tier 1 unit rifle are tier 0

The only reason than Grenadiere are T1 was to delay their fielding in vanilla CoH. OST by design was always intended to have T1 and also build it right away. But that aside: Both are mainline infantry and the only choice you have if you play a standard game. T1 or T0 does not make any difference at all.

3 rifle nade come after 40 fu to tech

Rifle nade is unlocked with normal teching, hand grenade is unlocked with sidetech. Both factions are designed to unlock their medium at about the same time, so side tech will delay your tank, which is not the case for OST. VERY bad comparison.

and isn't the cal 50 much better ?

No it generally is not. Most players see the MG42 as the best MG in the game due to high suppression and the wide arch. 50 cal might have better pen and also decent suppression, but lacks the wide arch and therefore the ability to establish area control, which is the most important aspect of an MG.


nobody said they want 2 lmg did u smoke or drink before coming to the forum ?

Warning for wording. I don't look kindly upon ad hominem "arguments".
The other debaters should take note as well. A heated debate is no excuse for insults.
10 Aug 2019, 20:03 PM
#109
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4334


The only reason than Grenadiere are T1 was to delay their fielding in vanilla CoH. OST by design was always intended to have T1 and also build it right away. But that aside: Both are mainline infantry and the only choice you have if you play a standard game. T1 or T0 does not make any difference at all.

Rifle nade is unlocked with normal teching, hand grenade is unlocked with sidetech. Both factions are designed to unlock their medium at about the same time, so side tech will delay your tank, which is not the case for OST. VERY bad comparison.


No it generally is not. Most players see the MG42 as the best MG in the game due to high suppression and the wide arch. 50 cal might have better pen and also decent suppression, but lacks the wide arch and therefore the ability to establish area control, which is the most important aspect of an MG.


Warning for wording. I don't look kindly upon ad hominem "arguments".
The other debaters should take note as well. A heated debate is no excuse for insults.

that not fully true, if we take brits and ost and they bot rush for tank osther will have to give up in tier and tier 2 unit to make it in time, while brits skipping side tech will get tier 1 units (btw by skipping tier 1 u basically skip on faust lmg 42 upgrade and rifle nade)

i posted above why the cal 50 is better but to TLDR: better suppression, and while it has a bit worse arc it get almost pre nerf lvl maxim spam set up time (and the ability to fight vehicle from vet 0)

i think trying to put words in someone else post is a bit more, shaddy than calling someone drunk cause he did such thing (put words in someone else post)
10 Aug 2019, 20:11 PM
#110
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 899

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Aug 2019, 19:47 PMRiley
But when the grenadiers (240 mp and lmg 60 muni) and the Riflemans (280 and doctrine lmg 70 muni) meet against each other, the grenadiers more often win.


No?

At maximum range (35), the Rifle's Garand has ~1.7dps, the M1919 has 8.76dps
4 x 1.7 + 8.76 = 15.56dps at 35 range

At maximum range (35), the Gren's K98k has ~2.26dps, the LGM42 has 8.93dps
3 x 2.26 + 8.93 = 15.71dps at 35 range

Riflemen have 5x 80hp, or a 400hp effective pool
Grens have 4x 80hp, or a 320hp effective pool

400hp/15.71dps = 25.4sec
320/15.56dps = 20.6sec

Rifles at max range w/ M1919 are 19% stronger than Grens w/ LMG42.

This doesn't take into account that for each model lost, grens lose 33% of their K98k damage, vs. 25% for Rifle's Garand. Also note that this becomes more in favor of Rifles the closer you get: The LMG42 stays around 0.2-0.3dps ahead at all ranges, but the 4x Garands fill in that DPS difference at range 25. On top of that, Rifle's have far, far better vet bonuses.
10 Aug 2019, 20:13 PM
#111
avatar of 13greed47

Posts: 54



It is unfair to straight up compare Volksgrenadiers to Conscripts or Grenadiers.

OKW has been designed with worse support weapons, so Volksgrenadiers are meant to be able to fight better independently than their counterparts. They are meant to be slightly more cost effective than other infantry.

Conscripts and especially Grenadiers however, are designed to be supplemented by support weapons.




worst support weapons :


mg34 : a mg 42 just with lower stats same arc
leig : pack howie 2.0 cost almost nothing (so spamable where the howie cost a bunch to unlock and a bunch to produce in a team where rifle cost already tons of mp) can be use with 2 model (howie need 3 or he die) and get doctrinal firestrike.
raketen: at gun with camo and retreat you can scout shoot and retreat, cost nothing (the cheapest at in game so you can make 2- 3 of them together and roam the battlefield)



so yeah really worse collective weapons
10 Aug 2019, 20:15 PM
#112
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 899

worst support weapons :


mg34 : a mg 42 just with lower stats same arc
leig : pack howie 2.0 cost almost nothing (so spamable where the howie cost a bunch to unlock and a bunch to produce in a team where rifle cost already tons of mp) can be use with 2 model (howie need 3 or he die) and get doctrinal firestrike.
raketen: at gun with camo and retreat you can scout shoot and retreat, cost nothing (the cheapest at in game so you can make 2- 3 of them together and roam the battlefield)



so yeah really worse collective weapons


While the M34 point is right, the other two have significant downsides. The LeiG is significantly worse than the Pack Howie, so that's not really a fair comparison, and while the Raketten can cloak and retreat, it also has much less range, and a tendency to miss / hit the ground.
10 Aug 2019, 20:18 PM
#113
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4334



While the M34 point is right, the other two have significant downsides. The LeiG is significantly worse than the Pack Howie, so that's not really a fair comparison, and while the Raketten can cloak and retreat, it also has much less range, and a tendency to miss / hit the ground.
and the fact this all come late (apart form the worthless at gun)not at the start like soviet ukf and osther
10 Aug 2019, 20:20 PM
#114
avatar of Jilet

Posts: 400


while the Raketten can cloak and retreat, it also has much less range, and a tendency to miss / hit the ground.


And also being a 4 man squad.Which if you kill 3 them last guy will run away.
10 Aug 2019, 20:27 PM
#115
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 2416 | Subs: 5

worst support weapons :


Worse not worst. And I mainly meant their timing.
10 Aug 2019, 20:33 PM
#116
avatar of insaneHoshi

Posts: 911


400hp/15.71dps = 25.4sec
320/15.56dps = 20.6sec


Also keep in mind, in game, people dont (or shouldnt fight to the last man)

Optimally you retreat with one man left meaning RM have to deal 240 damage, while grens have to deal 320
10 Aug 2019, 20:35 PM
#117
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15442 | Subs: 7



Also keep in mind, in game, people dont (or shouldnt fight to the last man)

Optimally you retreat with one man left meaning RM have to deal 240 damage, while grens have to deal 320


Actually, OPTIMALLY and REALISTICLY you do not pick up fights that you can't win and should retreat early, unless its critical position, no need to give opponent vet and lose more attrition then you can inflict.
10 Aug 2019, 20:47 PM
#118
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4334






leig : pack howie 2.0 cost almost nothing (so spamable where the howie cost a bunch to unlock and a bunch to produce in a team where rifle cost already tons of mp) can be use with 2 model (howie need 3 or he die) and get doctrinal firestrike.

:rofl::rofl:

for 10 more mp and 35 fuel later than a pm41 (the soviet mortar) u get, 2 less man, worse AOE, faster reload, no retreat, 20 more barrage only range, better scatter, ranged cone (more wasted time)and wrose minimum range
10 Aug 2019, 20:49 PM
#119
avatar of 13greed47

Posts: 54

jump backJump back to quoted post10 Aug 2019, 20:20 PMJilet


And also being a 4 man squad.Which if you kill 3 them last guy will run away.





that a crap argument where only the soviet have 6 man at gun and only 1 of them is viable and cost 320mp vs the low cost of a raketen that can just camo and scout and since allies armor isnt great i dont see the problem with the fact it miss a little more after all usf need to pay ammo to make there at work at peak performance
10 Aug 2019, 20:49 PM
#120
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 1091 | Subs: 1


that not fully true, if we take brits and ost and they bot rush for tank osther will have to give up in tier and tier 2 unit to make it in time, while brits skipping side tech will get tier 1 units (btw by skipping tier 1 u basically skip on faust lmg 42 upgrade and rifle nade)

i posted above why the cal 50 is better but to TLDR: better suppression, and while it has a bit worse arc it get almost pre nerf lvl maxim spam set up time (and the ability to fight vehicle from vet 0)

i think trying to put words in someone else post is a bit more, shaddy than calling someone drunk cause he did such thing (put words in someone else post)

First, this thread is about the Riflemen/Volk balance. This topic will touch other mainlines, but it has been fully derailed into a Grenadier discussion with MG42 and 50 cal comparisons, while you now try to go for IS for some reason. Far off the mark. If you want to discuss Grenadier balance, open another thread.

So I will just adress these points very briefly.
As OST you can't skip T1 unless you play call in infantry which are assault grenadiere (they get a nade) or Osttruppen (they get a faust after T1 or T2 is build). Previous discussion was about USF, not UKF. Comparing to UKF as a faction with balance issues is a good way to create more balance issues. Still my argument holds true. There's also issues with your argumentation, just a few: Side tech delays your medium, regardless of when it would usually come out. If your opponent rushed a medium, there is no reason for you to get T2. UKF is designed that they need to side tech their infantry and they need it to stay competitive infantry wise mid/late game. Cromwell is by far worse than the OST P4 for 10 fu less and can be controlled more easily due to the availability of OST snares.

50 cal:
The 50 cal has decent stats (not sure about accuracy though, I will assume it's similar) and I never doubted that. Also the DhsK has the best MG stats in the game, even before the buff. Still it was not build due to bad arch. The most important thing is that the MG42 will usually suppress in one single burst. More suppression than that is initially not needed for area controll. But what is needed is a bigger arch to also suppress the squad that tries to flank. I'm not saying that the 50 cal has no merits, but the majority of players (including me) would gladly give up any MG for an MG42. Also the 50 cal needs some minor AT options because otherwise USF has next to no vehicle control beside AT rifle grenades on vetted Riflemen, one single bazooka on the officer and shitty 10 mun light mines. Literally that's it. Unless you side tech and delay your medium (see above).

Putting words in anyones mouth is shady and horrible discussion style. It's still no excuse for insults. Call him out on that bullshit and I'm all in for some reasonable mockery and fun on the forums, but there's a fine line between mockery and insult and in my opinion you and some others crossed it or are too close to crossing it here. Keep things civil.
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