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Soviet General Faction Changes - New cmdr mod 5.0

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26 Apr 2019, 11:00 AM
#401
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Apr 2019, 10:03 AMKatitof

Not really.
Their DPS improvement over con mosins is minimal.
~0.4 DPS at all ranges.

You really believe an "improvement" of 1.2 DPS would make a difference?

That info is simply false (once more I might add):
DPS Guard's mosin 0/10/20/35
4.734/3.659/2.569/1.423


DPS Conscript's Mosin
3.614/2.603/1.984/1.06

Source cruzz.
26 Apr 2019, 11:03 AM
#402
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

Just mentioning this, the M5 halftruck can only take one 7 man conscript squad and nothing else (not even a different squad).

Also, the wehrmacht expert AI ( prob check others too) is messed up. They seem to be stuck in a endless loop of spamming pioneers and mgs.


Thanks for taking the time to report these. The Half Track issue is known and the AI is just bugged out because of the way the mod works (as a victory condition), which won't happen on the live release of the patch.
26 Apr 2019, 11:31 AM
#403
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

Just mentioning this, the M5 halftruck can only take one 7 man conscript squad and nothing else (not even a different squad).

Also, the wehrmacht expert AI ( prob check others too) is messed up. They seem to be stuck in a endless loop of spamming pioneers and mgs.

The bots are not teching up is the problem. Set against a Soviet and you will see only CE and cons, okw and Brits are more diverse but non of the bots are teching up
26 Apr 2019, 12:09 PM
#404
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Apr 2019, 10:03 AMKatitof

Not really.
Their DPS improvement over con mosins is minimal.
~0.4 DPS at all ranges.

You really believe an "improvement" of 1.2 DPS would make a difference?
kat i didn't think u would fall so low as AAA and fake stats, i thought u were a man with standards :(
26 Apr 2019, 12:11 PM
#405
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 2182 | Subs: 2

Not necessarily that it would be the Guard Mosin rifle. This may be the new high-quality Mosin rifle, which have characteristics between the Conscript Mosin and the Guard Mosin.
26 Apr 2019, 12:17 PM
#406
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

kat i didn't think u would fall so low as AAA and fake stats, i thought u were a man with standards :(


He means 0.4 as +40%, which is roughly correct.
26 Apr 2019, 12:19 PM
#407
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

kat i didn't think u would fall so low as AAA and fake stats, i thought u were a man with standards :(

Not faking, having too many tabs opened.
Had SVT vs guard mosins opened rigtht next to con mosin vs guard mosin.
Add 2 and 2 together for the rest of the story.

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Apr 2019, 12:17 PMLago


He means 0.4 as +40%, which is roughly correct.

I've said 0.4 dps, which is accurate at long range, at cqc its bit more, but if you compare it with current cover bonus, its roughly the same at close range and less half of the bonus at long range(ignoring 7th model base dps).
26 Apr 2019, 12:21 PM
#408
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Apr 2019, 12:17 PMLago


He means 0.4 as +40%, which is roughly correct.

Not really, the original post talk about DPS and not %:

"Not really.
Their DPS improvement over con mosins is minimal.
~0.4 DPS at all ranges.

You really believe an "improvement" of 1.2 DPS would make a difference?"
26 Apr 2019, 12:25 PM
#409
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Apr 2019, 12:19 PMKatitof

Not faking, having too many tabs opened.
Had SVT vs guard mosins opened rigtht next to con mosin vs guard mosin.
Add 2 and 2 together for the rest of the story.


I've said 0.4 dps, which is accurate at long range, at cqc its bit more, but if you compare it with current cover bonus, its roughly the same at close range and less half of the bonus at long range(ignoring 7th model base dps).
would it be better as it give them more damage were they are supposed to be good and even give them better moving accuracy ?
26 Apr 2019, 12:30 PM
#410
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

would it be better as it give them more damage were they are supposed to be good and even give them better moving accuracy ?

You could argue about that, but there would be problems with transparency on which model is using what, cons swapping mosins for mosins or inconsistently losing dps.

Again, if weapon upgrade was to be the way, I'd go with SVTs which solves all of the above.
26 Apr 2019, 12:31 PM
#411
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Apr 2019, 12:30 PMKatitof

You could argue about that, but there would be problems with transparency on which model is using what, cons swapping mosins for mosins or inconsistently losing dps.

Again, if weapon upgrade was to be the way, I'd go with SVTs which solves all of the above.
yea but the road seems closed that's why i opted for guard mossin
26 Apr 2019, 12:33 PM
#412
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17875 | Subs: 8

yea but the road seems closed that's why i opted for guard mossin

It'll be closed when the patch hits life.
Otherwise, guard mosins would also be a closed road because 7th man and cover bonus exist already.
26 Apr 2019, 12:47 PM
#413
avatar of Kirrik

Posts: 573

I think 6 Guard mosins (without other bonuses) should be added as alternative upgrade in commander mod, at very least it's worth testing it to see how it performs compared to 7 man/cover bonuses/mp decrease/shared vet.
26 Apr 2019, 13:00 PM
#414
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1614 | Subs: 3

If the balance team really wants to go on with giving conscripts such a large dps bonus on top of the extra model, atleast consider removing the lower reinforcement cost.
26 Apr 2019, 13:06 PM
#415
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

Increasing DPS to solve diversity issues is step in the wrong direction.

Penal had their DPS increased to be used more often and it lead to chain reaction increasing the DPs of Guards, then shock and now Conscripts.

After so many patches I would expect that it ha become clear, that when balancing a number of small changes if more effective than major buffs.

In the end of the day if units with in a faction are "compared" on basis of DPS one will always better than the others.

26 Apr 2019, 16:45 PM
#416
avatar of murky depths

Posts: 607



Yes it is, my bad. The cover bonusses do apply there, I thought you were talking about the next test with the Panzergrenadiers closing in to within the 10 range threshold.



It's all good.
26 Apr 2019, 17:24 PM
#417
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

What if the cover bonus was removed from the 7 man upgrade and added as a global upgrade on the HQ for something like 250 MP and 30 fuel, but also toned down to 30-40%?
26 Apr 2019, 19:25 PM
#418
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Apr 2019, 13:06 PMVipper
Penal had their DPS increased to be used more often and it lead to chain reaction increasing the DPs of Guards, then shock and now Conscripts.


Well, that's actually wrong.

Guards were not "buffed" overall. They just overnerfed them and then they rectified and the end product remains an inferior unit but "balanced" considering the changes in the overall game. We have already gone through this but for others:



Shocks were not bad because of Penals. Shocks were "average" at best after WFA were released (seeing use only mostly when KV8 was OP) and not worthy after OKW rework.

Finally, the funny thing is that Penals saw no use for years, because they actually made them Riflemen for Soviets. Original design was 6 man G43 squad with the same premium cost as PG.


Conscripts: as i said before, i just hope that the cover bonus is just slight over the top for people to actually try it. This is just a common practice when you implement a new feature.
26 Apr 2019, 20:06 PM
#419
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



Well, that's actually wrong.

Guards were not "buffed" overall. They just overnerfed them and then they rectified and the end product remains an inferior unit but "balanced" considering the changes in the overall game. We have already gone through this but for others:



Shocks were not bad because of Penals. Shocks were "average" at best after WFA were released (seeing use only mostly when KV8 was OP) and not worthy after OKW rework.

Finally, the funny thing is that Penals saw no use for years, because they actually made them Riflemen for Soviets. Original design was 6 man G43 squad with the same premium cost as PG.


Conscripts: as i said before, i just hope that the cover bonus is just slight over the top for people to actually try it. This is just a common practice when you implement a new feature.

The Guards used to be bad because of bug that made them jumped around and not fire. Only when that was fixed they showed their true fire power.

The point I making thou is different, increasing DPS not the way to go to fix diversity issues because it leads to a chain reactions of buffs. This continuous circle of buffs has to stop.
26 Apr 2019, 22:38 PM
#420
avatar of comm_ash
Patrion 14

Posts: 1194 | Subs: 1

Cover bonus is too high IMO, but other than that the conscript buff is balanced. It makes more sense in the context of the unit to increase the squad size than to give them an upgrade, and it also synergizes with their abilities.

Part of the discussion needs to be on what the upgrade is worth/ should provide. Should the upgrade only make cons a better chump unit for capping and recrewing weapons? Then they should probably reinforce faster but not have such a cover bonus. Should they become a very effective squad in green cover but remain shit outside? Then they should retain the cover bonus and beat other baseline squads in cost effectiveness when in cover.
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