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Why does the Firefly have to suck so much?

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Mongal
7 Mar 2019, 18:39 PM
#41
avatar of Mongal

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jump backJump back to quoted post7 Mar 2019, 18:34 PMVipper

Not really, Elephant has a range of 70 and FF of 60.
(Unless in you opinion the FF can shoot enemy medium on the other side of map and stug can not.)

Actually I have little intention of comparing the 2 units I am simply pointing out that the "DPS" calculation provided are flawed and are misleading.


If FF could self spot like the Ele then yeah, but it cant.
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Bananenheld
7 Mar 2019, 18:46 PM
#42
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jump backJump back to quoted post7 Mar 2019, 18:39 PMMongal


If FF could self spot like the Ele then yeah, but it cant.

Just forgetting one is doctrinal (and even selfspotting is an extra doctrinal ability) and one is stock.
See ? This is pointless if you only try to search for stats which Supports your argument.
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Alphrum
7 Mar 2019, 18:55 PM
#44
avatar of Alphrum

Posts: 808

Comparing the FF to su85's and jacksons is just so flawed. SU85 is far more venerable then a FF and jackson in the state that its in is because their isn't much options for USF in the late game. You have to also look at the faction it comes in. UKF have access to cromwells, comets, centaur, Churchill and the FF is best used in combination with the Churchill.

FF job is to counter axis heavies and it does that job perfectly well. You cant compare individual units in a vacuum and ignore everything else
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SkysTheLimit
7 Mar 2019, 20:37 PM
#45
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1

It's very telling that you included most stats except damage per shot. Firefly is the only non-heavy TD that does above 160 from the get-go. It even gets more damage with vet.

DPS is always a strange choice for measuring TDs. If they're taking damage then you're either going for a dive or making a mistake.

TDs aren't trying to kill tanks faster than the tank can kill them, they're trying to kill the tanks without taking fire at all.
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elchino7
7 Mar 2019, 21:10 PM
#46
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The best measure is TTK against 640HP (most common HP pool for medium tanks). You could also get fancy going with 400, 560, 800, 960, etc.

DPS is a bad statistic when we are talking about tanks engagements. It's also bad when you use more than 1 of the same unit. For example:

A tank which deals 160dmg every 10s. It takes 30s to kill a medium tank.
Now 2 of the same tank. It only takes 10s to kill the same medium tank.

Finally, alpha damage. Burst damage >>> Sustained dmg.
My controls weren't working
And if they were, you were playing dishonorably,
And if you weren't, you were playing without skill,
And if you were, it's not fun to play that way,
And if it is, you only care about winning.

Bible of Scrublord, Psalt 3:16.

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murky depths
7 Mar 2019, 21:15 PM
#47
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Posts: 607

Doesn't DPS easily translate to Time-to-kill?

Target HP / DPS = time to kill (on average), no?

Assuming DPS factors in penetration chance ofc.
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Katitof
7 Mar 2019, 21:16 PM
#48
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jump backJump back to quoted post7 Mar 2019, 21:15 PMmurky depths
Doesn't DPS easily translate to Time-to-kill?

Target HP / DPS = time to kill (on average), no?

Assuming DPS factors in penetration chance ofc.

Only for infantry.
In armor combat damage increments and damage values play massive role.

Example:

Elephant vs M5 halftruck and T70.

M5 has 320 hp, T70 400.

DPS as you would make it would give different time to kill, when, assuming hits, for both its the exact same time.
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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murky depths
7 Mar 2019, 21:20 PM
#49
avatar of murky depths

Posts: 607

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Mar 2019, 21:16 PMKatitof

Only for infantry.
In armor combat damage increments and damage values play massive role.

Example:

Elephant vs M5 halftruck and T70.

M5 has 320 hp, T70 400.

DPS as you would make it would give different time to kill, when, assuming hits, for both its the exact same time.


So then what is the ideal way to calculate time-to-kill?

(target_HP / (Damage * penetration_chance)) * rate_of_fire?
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Katitof
7 Mar 2019, 21:23 PM
#50
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17891 | Subs: 8

Rate of fire times shots needed to kill with first shot at zero second.

You can make it complicated by adding accuracy and pen chance but for simplicity sake, what's in the first line is the most accurate.
jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2015, 11:09 AM$nuffy
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
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blvckdream
7 Mar 2019, 21:30 PM
#51
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1

Yeah I agree that DPS is probably not a great statistic. So lets say TTK with every shot penetrating/hitting.


Firefly TTK against P4: 24 seconds
Jackson TTK against P4: 13.14 seconds
SU 85 TTK against P4: 16 seconds

Firefly TTK against Panther: 32 seconds
Jackson TTK against Panther: 21,9 seconds
SU-85 TTK against Panther: 27 seconds

Firefly TTK against Tiger: 40 seconds
Jackson TTK against Tiger: 26,28 seconds
SU-85 TTK against Tiger: 32,4 seconds

Firefly TTK against KT: 48 seconds
Jackson TTK against KT: 30,66 seconds
SU-85 TTK against KT: 37,8 seconds

Still shows how terrible the Firefly is though. Less mobility, higher cost, still worst TTK
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distrofio
7 Mar 2019, 21:32 PM
#52
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Mar 2019, 21:20 PMmurky depths


So then what is the ideal way to calculate time-to-kill?
...


(Tank_micro_skill)*((times_being_shot)-(tank_armour)*(tank_target_size))/(bad_desitions)*(if_tank_snared)*(amount_of_ragequits))-1

That should give a pretty accurate time-to-kill ratio
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distrofio
7 Mar 2019, 21:33 PM
#53
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Mar 2019, 21:30 PMblvckdream
Yeah I agree that DPS is probably not a great statistic. So lets say TTK with every shot penetrating/hitting.


Firefly TTK against P4: 24 seconds
Jackson TTK against P4: 13.14 seconds
SU 85 TTK against P4: 16 seconds

Firefly TTK against Panther: 32 seconds
Jackson TTK against Panther: 21,9 seconds
SU-85 TTK against Panther: 27 seconds

Firefly TTK against Tiger: 40 seconds
Jackson TTK against Tiger: 26,28 seconds
SU-85 TTK against Tiger: 32,4 seconds

Firefly TTK against KT: 48 seconds
Jackson TTK against KT: 30,66 seconds
SU-85 TTK against KT: 37,8 seconds

Still shows how terrible the Firefly is though. Less mobility, higher cost, still worst TTK

And where did you make up those numbers honey?
No source, no trust.

Dont oversimplify for the sake of your argument
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blvckdream
7 Mar 2019, 21:35 PM
#54
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1

Just stats from cruzz spreadsheet. You can simply calculate it yourself and you will get the same results.

As an exmaple:

Firefly against P4: It takes 4 hits to destroy the P4 because 4x200=800 HP and P4 has 640. There is no reload on the first shot so it´s 3x reload at 8 seconds = 24 seconds.

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distrofio
7 Mar 2019, 21:40 PM
#55
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358

And this "Time-to-kill" magic number you are making up, is it telling you something? I see fancy math but no brains, a single FF displaces most Medium tanks at plain sight. 3 shots + snare is mostly what happens and a P4 is dead.
If i use a FF what i expect the less would be the other tank to stand still until i destroy it.
No no, i disagree with that being usefull at all.

Edit: A number wont justify FF being bad/good. Mostly will be how you pulled off the play. Playing against the odds, plain domination, coordinated playstyle, etc.

Also i will always repeat, cost dont balance at all between factions, but for the faction itself. You cant buy a FF from UKF playing as SU. And if OKM JP4 can kill your FF paying less it only shows that JP4 its cheaper for that OKM player but not the UKF you are playing with. There is a clear line to differentiate between performance and cost.
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ShadowLinkX37
7 Mar 2019, 21:44 PM
#56
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
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Posts: 4183 | Subs: 4

Invised a post for being offtopic.

This thread is hot already, but lets keep it clean please :)

As far as FF goes, shaving off a bit of the price is probably the best place to start. 40MP and 5F would most certainly satisfy me if but only for a time.

I don't want to get too far into this discussion, but I just want to add something about TTK for the FF. If you consider the fact that the first shot doesn't require a reload, you can easily chain tulips following a 2nd shot. If you're able to have both connect, that's a kill on a 640 medium tank and it takes about 12ish seconds to pull off.

^ that's how I like to utilize my fireflies at least.
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Jae For Jett
7 Mar 2019, 23:34 PM
#57
avatar of Jae For Jett
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Posts: 1002 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Mar 2019, 21:10 PMelchino7
The best measure is TTK against 640HP (most common HP pool for medium tanks). You could also get fancy going with 400, 560, 800, 960, etc.

DPS is a bad statistic when we are talking about tanks engagements. It's also bad when you use more than 1 of the same unit. For example:

A tank which deals 160dmg every 10s. It takes 30s to kill a medium tank.
Now 2 of the same tank. It only takes 10s to kill the same medium tank.

Finally, alpha damage. Burst damage >>> Sustained dmg.

Yeah, that's one of the main things I wanted to point out. Alpha damage is VERY relevant, and DPS is very impractical of a stat to use for slow firing weapons like tank cannons.

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Mar 2019, 18:28 PMSuperHansFan

On topic I think the FF needs like 10 less fuel and 40mp less MP shaved off

I agree, I think it can do with a cost decrease with numbers in the range you just provided.

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Mar 2019, 18:28 PMSuperHansFan

Also tulips shouldn't be so goofy to use, let us fire them on the move like any other ability, the balance team have been pretty good with these adjustments rather than the relic sledgehammer approach of buff or nerf (ok Jaeger were a one off)

Firing on the move + free aim type abilities (as opposed to targeted or weapon modifying) wouldn't work very well together. Making them targeted would easily make them overpowered, and making them a temporary change of weapon would be a hacky change that would also probably still make them overpowered. I think tulips functionality are fine for what they are, but as with the firefly itself, I do think they could do with a slight cost decrease.
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insaneHoshi
8 Mar 2019, 00:21 AM
#58
avatar of insaneHoshi

Posts: 911

You know OP is biased when he shows how bad a firefliy's TTK a KT, says that the JP4 is sting and neglects to show how the JP does vs a KT or IS2

JP4 TTK IS2: (roughly) 70 seconds
Imagine my playercard is here
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insaneHoshi
8 Mar 2019, 00:25 AM
#59
avatar of insaneHoshi

Posts: 911

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Mar 2019, 14:26 PMElSlayer

Vetted top tier Tank Destroyer has high chance to penetrate armor of late game tanks.


Then where is JP4s high chance to pen?
Imagine my playercard is here
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distrofio
8 Mar 2019, 00:39 AM
#60
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Mar 2019, 00:25 AMinsaneHoshi


Then where is JP4s high chance to pen?

+1 on this. JP4 has low pen values for it to be a turretless TD (it should be either cheaper or deadlier for it)

But back on topic. A small cost reduction to FF wouldnt hurt. Specially for 1v1.

Also, i remember a CoH2 mod called wikinger, that adds this ability to FF to snipe other tanks, first you need to upgrade with sniping scopes (this could be doctrinal) and then the tank becomes stationary and looses most of his LoS. This way it can kill other tanks from really far ranges, as long as someone spots for it.
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