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russian armor

Hull down in Spring Ballance Patch

21 Apr 2018, 10:13 AM
#21
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885

So this change is somewhat on me, the 7.5 setup time was being pushed by Relic/Smith so I put forward that with all the offensive bonuses at a halfed set-up time all the drawbacks of the ability start to dissipate.

A hulled down panther with 960 HP on current Hull Down stats would be completely broken, if you could set hull-down in half the time people would actually start seeing how op the stats it gives actually are.

I'd rather not see the ability changed at all but if it's forced down to 7.5 seconds it cant have the offensive buffs it'd just be too OP. If you can constantly be setting up and tearing down hulldown quickly it starts removing the bad elements.

Onlive Hull-Down fits a niche, the only reason it doesn't typically see plays in 1s is that the 3 most viable Ostheer commanders are around pushing early game and countering light vehicles (ostheer's main problem). I've been using it in my 2v2 loadout for a long time as have a lot of other high rank 2v2 people, Festung and Ele Comm in particular can combine CT's damage reduction with all the bonuses from Hull Down, total aids with Panther and Ostwind.

But yeah i'm pushing for it to go untouched because it's actually a sort of well-designed ability, 15 seconds of set-up is a fairer risk-reward than 7.5 seconds if you get all the buffs you do on live. It has over-synergy with Ostwind, Panther and Command Tank


Yeah, this is a good analysis and I can agree with most of it. The only thing I'd like to mention is that if relic would really force the change to set up, which is in my opinion unnecessary, then it should get smaller nerf to compensate than removing all of the offencive bonuses. With all the offencive bonuses removed it is actually a downgrade, even if you could cast it in a second.

Also, if newly buffed panther is the problem, then I would rather see the removal of defencive bonuses. It won't affect the usability of the ability for most units, but it won't make panther OP.
21 Apr 2018, 10:28 AM
#22
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

Again the ability needs to give custom bonuses for each different unit, either wise it will be OP for some units and UP for other.

The reload might be too much the range is needed.

In addition if it possible technically one could extend this ability to light vehicles like the 251 and 222.
21 Apr 2018, 21:38 PM
#23
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

If it gives custom bonuses it needs to be in the UI. no more of this same name different effect shit (hull down on cons increases defense and decreases offense and on guards its the opposite, nowhere does it say that in game)

Edit: hit the dirt, not hull down
22 Apr 2018, 05:45 AM
#24
avatar of Grumpy

Posts: 1951



The problem is that no matter how big the defencive buff is, if the tank won't get the range bonus it won't be able to return fire. A mobile tank can always fight slower TDs by trying to flank or by rushing forwards. Hulled down one can't, so it needs ability to hit them from its hulled down position. Bonus range vahicles like panther, stug, tiger and puma can do that with current buff. The others can't, but at least they can shoot first against incoming tanks or infantry.

One could also argue that RoF and range buffs acutally do make sense in historical context of hull down. German tanks in the game have no stabilisers, so firing from a tank that was mobile a short while ago is very inaccurate and effectively reduces range. What is more, hulled down tank gunner can use the terrain to fire further and more accurately, becouse he can note where shells landed with some specific gun adjustment. That is what artillery did for ages and mobility invalidates all of this. RoF buff can also be seen as less time needed to aim.


Make it cloak also - detectable at range 20-25. It could still be hit by a TD, but you would have to spot and the spotting unit would take fire.
22 Apr 2018, 08:21 AM
#25
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17884 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Apr 2018, 05:45 AMGrumpy


Make it cloak also - detectable at range 20-25. It could still be hit by a TD, but you would have to spot and the spotting unit would take fire.

You're walking on other abilities field.
There already is vehicle cloak and its not nor should it be on axis high profile armor.
22 Apr 2018, 15:00 PM
#26
avatar of Grumpy

Posts: 1951

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Apr 2018, 08:21 AMKatitof

You're walking on other abilities field.
There already is vehicle cloak and its not nor should it be on axis high profile armor.


Ost has cloak for tanks? Hull down allows vehicles to move?

Giving it cloak would help make up for lack of 60 range TD, without changing range of Ost tanks/TD's.
22 Apr 2018, 15:12 PM
#27
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17884 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post22 Apr 2018, 15:00 PMGrumpy


Ost has cloak for tanks? Hull down allows vehicles to move?

Giving it cloak would help make up for lack of 60 range TD, without changing range of Ost tanks/TD's.

Not ost, but giving one faction other factions abilities+more is not exactly a good way to balance stuff.

Example:
For mother russia vs OKW valliant assault or whatever its called(the one in falls doctrine).
23 Apr 2018, 10:56 AM
#28
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 17

Range stays.

Offensive bonuses refer to the following bonuses that the units get and turn Ostwinds into wipe machines:

Reload: 0.8
Cooldown: 0.5

23 Apr 2018, 15:37 PM
#29
avatar of ZombiFrancis

Posts: 2742

Range stays.

Offensive bonuses refer to the following bonuses that the units get and turn Ostwinds into wipe machines:



A hulldown ostwind is still way worse than a bofors. If by wipe machine you mean that they can disable hulldown and chase to wipe, then yeah, I see what you mean.

23 Apr 2018, 17:59 PM
#30
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4183 | Subs: 4

Range stays.

Offensive bonuses refer to the following bonuses that the units get and turn Ostwinds into wipe machines:



If you're just removing these 2 it looks like you're just changing the ability to compensate for the panther changes so it doesn't act as a 62 range machine gun. I'm ok with that.
23 Apr 2018, 18:33 PM
#31
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

A hulldown ostwind is still way worse than a bofors.


Good. I'm not keen on a Bofors that creeps closer to my base when I'm not looking.
23 Apr 2018, 18:42 PM
#32
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885

Range stays.

Offensive bonuses refer to the following bonuses that the units get and turn Ostwinds into wipe machines:



Good, although that makes patch notes terribly inaccurate. Pretty much everybody considers range an offensive bonus.
24 Apr 2018, 18:50 PM
#33
avatar of Felinewolfie

Posts: 868 | Subs: 5

I consider range an offensive bonus.
It's not like it's a defensive bonus.

Range should be removed to go with TDs all being hard-nerfed.
Reduce Panther's range to 40, as it now is a brawler and no longer a TD.
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