Login

russian armor

Tank destroyers should be less accurate

12 Apr 2018, 06:21 AM
#41
avatar of insaneHoshi

Posts: 911

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Apr 2018, 19:25 PMKasarov
StuG has long since been considered over performing and a crutch for the Axis. Additionally, it allows people playing to dwindle down the path of "stay at T3" instead of getting a Panther because it kills mediums better and is available cheaper and earlier. Putting the StuG at 640hp and cloning the SU-76 120 damage will mean it still has the health edge on the SU-76 while keeping solid firepower against mediums. It would be a good distinction between the PaK, StuG, and Panther.


Then it should also get self spotting, 60 range and a free barrage like the su-76 too.
13 Apr 2018, 06:55 AM
#42
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Apr 2018, 06:14 AMEsxile


The what? How many allied heavy do you see those days? Increasing range and lowering pen is just going to sign off the end of USF faction.
Second point is if one or two stugs aren't enough to pen heavies, build another one. 3 Stugs will always be better than going t4 and building a Panther.


currently the stug have the same accuracy value as the other td (.04-.06), but in a shorter range.

The significantly cheaper price on the stug is partly due to the 50m range on the gun. a buff to 60m would require significant change to the gun, almost to the point of redesigning the unit.

It is also because of this I didn't include the stug with the other td. The general argument doesn't work as well.
13 Apr 2018, 10:36 AM
#43
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

Idk why you would compared the stats of a JT and Ele to a Firefly, considering they aren't really in the same class.

Missing with a firefly hurts significantly more than missing with a Jp4, Jackson, or Su85. If you wanted the Mid Range accuracy to be similar then the reload would have to be about similar.


Similarly comparing a vet 3 FF means you would have to compare it to a full vet su85 or jp4. Also su85/jp4 have a much smaller target size than the FF.

This thread is more appropriate for debating TDs accuracy.

For the majority of units mid range is around the mid of their maximum range.

For no particular reason FF has a mid range of 45 which is x1.5 the range of the 60 range TDs.

It is also longer than JT with a greater max range of 80 and a mid range of 42.5 or the Elephant with man range of 70 and mid range of 35.

Given that FF is one of the most accurate TDs to begin with, has 97% change to score a "natural" hit a PZIV at range 60 (without even counting collision hits), there is no reason to have a mid range of 45 further increasing its accuracy gain in sorter ranges.
17 Apr 2018, 18:54 PM
#44
avatar of Felinewolfie

Posts: 868 | Subs: 5

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Apr 2018, 23:56 PMKasarov


The problem is this in practice does very little against mediums and heavies. For example, Soviet heavies are all 1040 hp iirc, which takes 7 (actual is 6.5) hits from a 160 damage gun and 6 (actual is 5.2) hits from a 200 damage gun. All mediums barring premediums have 640 health, which takes exactly 4 hits from a 160 damage gun, and still takes 4 hits from a 200 damage gun. Couple that with a Panther's (still) relatively slow fire rate and you'll find a minuscule difference in the heat of an engagement. The only benefit that is relevant would be increased vet per shot. Perhaps maybe it makes for one less shot for vehicles that are only 90% repaired or took some deflection damage from autocannons or damage from infantry AT.

I think that both StuG and SU-76 is overperforming still, and it wouldnt be "homogenizing" factions per se. Perhaps the "clone" part of my explanation was taken too literally. I would like a SU-76 armor pen (maybe also range) nerf while StuG gets a 40 damage nerf and a slight ROF buff. In the end, the guns wouldn't be equal, but the StuG and SU-76 would perform in a similar fashion. The StuG if given 640 health would mean it is as survivable as a medium tank (can take an extra hit) while the SU-76 dies in 3 hits. The two units are still very different, and we avoid making a new special snowflake 200 damage class when even heavy tanks still only do 160 damage.


===================

- Buff StuG health to 640? StuG already has highest ROF in game in terms of gunfire.
- SU76 loses range, pen, and accuracy and barrage.

SU76 : 400 health does 120 dmg. StuG 640 health (same cost) huge ROF so much higher DPS.
So SU76 takes 2.5 hits to kill. StuG takes 5.3 hits to kill (SU76 does 120 dmg)(Currently is 4 hits)

So... nerf SU76, buff StuG?

Why should StuG be buffed even more when it overperforms already? Panther would be built even less.
17 Apr 2018, 20:20 PM
#45
avatar of Kasarov
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 422 | Subs: 2



===================

- Buff StuG health to 640? StuG already has highest ROF in game in terms of gunfire.
- SU76 loses range, pen, and accuracy and barrage.

SU76 : 400 health does 120 dmg. StuG 640 health (same cost) huge ROF so much higher DPS.
So SU76 takes 2.5 hits to kill. StuG takes 5.3 hits to kill (SU76 does 120 dmg)(Currently is 4 hits)

So... nerf SU76, buff StuG?

Why should StuG be buffed even more when it overperforms already? Panther would be built even less.


If you read what I wrote I suggested nerfing StuG III damage from 160 to 120 and confer a restricted field of view like JP4. This 40 damage per shot nerf on the StuG gun would make it less effective versus heavier vehicles while giving the StuG approximately the same AT capability as a SU-76 (which is still very effective) instead of a PaK40. This forces Panther to be the heavy killer by separating roles between the StuG which used to excel at everything and the Panther which was seldom used.

The health buff from 580 to 640 is only a token buff to make it more resistant to infantry AT, as there is no difference in shots to kill it via 120 damage or 160 damage guns.
17 Apr 2018, 20:42 PM
#46
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4183 | Subs: 4

I'm just gonna throw this in here, but why does the StuG have actually decent enough AI on its main gun? It's not the aoe of stock mediums, but it'll pick a model frequently enough.
17 Apr 2018, 20:44 PM
#47
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

I'm just gonna throw this in here, but why does the StuG have actually decent enough AI on its main gun? It's not the aoe of stock mediums, but it'll pick a model frequently enough.
????????????????????????????????????? when in 2014 ? decent ai
17 Apr 2018, 20:44 PM
#48
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4183 | Subs: 4

????????????????????????????????????? when in 2014 ? decent ai


?????????????????????????????????????? Wanna test Su85 vs StuG main gun?????????????
17 Apr 2018, 20:48 PM
#49
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



?????????????????????????????????????? Wanna test Su85 vs StuG main gun?????????????

Su-85 has better AOE.

stug_iii_squad_mp
AOE

AOE Radius 0.5
Distance near 0.1
Distance mid 0.2
Distance far 0.25
Damage near 160
Damage mid 24
Damage far 8

su-85_mp: su85_d5t_85mm__mp

AOE

AOE Radius 0.5
Distance near 0.15
Distance mid 0.2
Distance far 0.25
Damage near 160
Damage mid 24
Damage far 8
17 Apr 2018, 20:53 PM
#50
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4183 | Subs: 4

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Apr 2018, 20:48 PMVipper

Su-85 has better AOE.

stug_iii_squad_mp
AOE

AOE Radius 0.5
Distance near 0.1
Distance mid 0.2
Distance far 0.25
Damage near 160
Damage mid 24
Damage far 8

su-85_mp: su85_d5t_85mm__mp

AOE

AOE Radius 0.5
Distance near 0.15
Distance mid 0.2
Distance far 0.25
Damage near 160
Damage mid 24
Damage far 8


Distance scatter max Su85: 7.5
"" StuG: 4

This is why the StuG will hit models more consistantly^ Coupled with better reload.
17 Apr 2018, 21:06 PM
#51
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



Distance scatter max Su85: 7.5
"" StuG: 4

This is why the StuG will hit models more consistantly^ Coupled with better reload.


Scatter distance max is an upper limit it does not really matter if it scatter more 0.5 which is the AOE.

What matters is the scatter ration and it is the same at 1.

Higher scatter value also help the weapon has a better chance at collision hits.
17 Apr 2018, 21:19 PM
#52
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4183 | Subs: 4

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Apr 2018, 21:06 PMVipper


Scatter distance max is an upper limit it does not really matter if it scatter more 0.5 which is the AOE.

What matters is the scatter ration and it is the same at 1.

Higher scatter value also help the weapon has a better chance at collision hits.


Now I may be wrong, but if what I think this implies is RNGesus can roll your scatter from somewhere from 0-4 (or 7.5 for su85). If that's correct then it matters greatly, since obviously there are more less than desireable values for the su85 than the stuG
17 Apr 2018, 22:03 PM
#53
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



Now I may be wrong, but if what I think this implies is RNGesus can roll your scatter from somewhere from 0-4 (or 7.5 for su85). If that's correct then it matters greatly, since obviously there are more less than desireable values for the su85 than the stuG

As far as I know linear scatter is value between distance x scatter ratio-0 any values above scatter distance max are rounded to scatter distance max.
17 Apr 2018, 22:10 PM
#54
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

So scatter just minimises how far it can go not increasing the odds of rolling closer? Whats the range for the roll then?
17 Apr 2018, 22:33 PM
#55
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

So scatter just minimises how far it can go not increasing the odds of rolling closer? Whats the range for the roll then?


As far as I know the RNG values are between 0-distance x Scatter ratio. Then there is check, if the value is greater than scatter distance max, scatter distance max is used instead.

https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/231279/a-guide-to-d-p-s-basics#latest
17 Apr 2018, 23:37 PM
#56
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930

So scatter just minimises how far it can go not increasing the odds of rolling closer? Whats the range for the roll then?


technically yes.

but if you were rolling for a lower number, a 1d6 will most likely beat a 1d20.
17 Apr 2018, 23:44 PM
#57
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

Cool. Thanks TIL.
18 Apr 2018, 08:35 AM
#58
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



technically yes.

but if you were rolling for a lower number, a 1d6 will most likely beat a 1d20.

This does not seem to be the case.

Scatter distance max is not included in the role it is just a limit.

The role should be 0-distance x ratio.
19 Apr 2018, 01:27 AM
#59
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930

jump backJump back to quoted post18 Apr 2018, 08:35 AMVipper

This does not seem to be the case.

Scatter distance max is not included in the role it is just a limit.

The role should be 0-distance x ratio.


pretty sure that's not how RNG works.

unless the RNG in Coh2 is just completely out of the ordinary, it's a 1d#.
1 user is browsing this thread: 1 guest

Ladders Top 10

  • #
    Steam Alias
    W
    L
    %
    Streak
Data provided by Relic Relic Entertainment

Replay highlight

VS
  • U.S. Forces flag cblanco ★
  • The British Forces flag 보드카 중대
  • Oberkommando West flag VonManteuffel
  • Ostheer flag Heartless Jäger
uploaded by XXxxHeartlessxxXX

Board Info

624 users are online: 1 member and 623 guests
Vriligyy60
19 posts in the last 24h
47 posts in the last week
101 posts in the last month
Registered members: 44654
Welcome our newest member, Vriligyy60
Most online: 2043 users on 29 Oct 2023, 01:04 AM