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russian armor

Rebalancing Sniper Counter for Ostheer

7 Feb 2018, 07:51 AM
#41
avatar of Array
Donator 11

Posts: 580



They changed the acc modifier of the heavy MG42 weapon team to 0.75 against snipers cause snipers don't prior the gunner anymore.

That doesn't affect coax MGs tho.



Here’s the change - it’s the coax gun


222 Scout Car

The 222 also wasn’t scaling with veterancy as well as other light vehicles and suffered from inconsistent damage output preventing it from tracking infantry properly. We also felt that the auto-cannon was too reliant on AOE for damage. Another concern with the 222 was that it was too cheap relative to its performance,

Manpower cost increased from from 210 to 250
Fuel cost increased from 15 to 30
Veterancy requirements increased from 480/960/1920 to 720/1440/2880
Acceleration increased from 2.4 to 3
Spotting Scopes Sight bonus reduced from 2 to 1.4
Veterancy 1 improves received accuracy to 0.889
Veterancy 3 awards 20 extra HP
Autocannon
* Autocannon accuracy from 0.06/0.04/0.02 to 0.05/0.04/0.03
* Autocannon AOE Near damage reduced from 1 to 0.6
* Autocannon Rate of fire multiplier from 1.4/1.2/1 to 1/1/1
* Autocannon penetration increased from 35 to 40
* Autocannon Mid range distance from 15 to 20

MG42
* MG42 now properly tracks infantry
* MG42 accuracy reduced from 0.6/0.425/0.25 to 0.44/0.385/0.275
* MG42 accuracy increases with veterancy: +10%/+15%/+15%
* MG42 range distance near from 10 to 0
* MG42 0.75 accuracy modifier versus Snipers (down from 1.5).
7 Feb 2018, 08:02 AM
#42
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 1977

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Feb 2018, 07:51 AMArray



Here’s the change - it’s the coax gun


222 Scout Car

The 222 also wasn’t scaling with veterancy as well as other light vehicles and suffered from inconsistent damage output preventing it from tracking infantry properly. We also felt that the auto-cannon was too reliant on AOE for damage. Another concern with the 222 was that it was too cheap relative to its performance,

Manpower cost increased from from 210 to 250
Fuel cost increased from 15 to 30
Veterancy requirements increased from 480/960/1920 to 720/1440/2880
Acceleration increased from 2.4 to 3
Spotting Scopes Sight bonus reduced from 2 to 1.4
Veterancy 1 improves received accuracy to 0.889
Veterancy 3 awards 20 extra HP
Autocannon
* Autocannon accuracy from 0.06/0.04/0.02 to 0.05/0.04/0.03
* Autocannon AOE Near damage reduced from 1 to 0.6
* Autocannon Rate of fire multiplier from 1.4/1.2/1 to 1/1/1
* Autocannon penetration increased from 35 to 40
* Autocannon Mid range distance from 15 to 20

MG42
* MG42 now properly tracks infantry
* MG42 accuracy reduced from 0.6/0.425/0.25 to 0.44/0.385/0.275
* MG42 accuracy increases with veterancy: +10%/+15%/+15%
* MG42 range distance near from 10 to 0
* MG42 0.75 accuracy modifier versus Snipers (down from 1.5).



What the hell...nerfing the dmg/ performanche...and increasing the price tag to...was it really that op?
7 Feb 2018, 08:20 AM
#43
avatar of ZaneyZap

Posts: 135




What the hell...nerfing the dmg/ performanche...and increasing the price tag to...was it really that op?


I recall one replay where a player had 222 bulletins and he did nothing but spam 222s. I t was fun to watch and his opponent was really salty.

Today I think the 222 is slightly underperforming for its price. I wouldn't mind seeing a slightly cheaper 222, maybe if it cost 20mp and 5F less.

I've also been thinking of ranking the 222 ability to deal dmg vs various units.

VS infantry and weapon teams
Mediocre

VS light vehicles
Good

VS light tanks/armored cars
Poor - Front armor
Good - Rear armor


Tanks
Terrible - Front armor
Surprisingly good - rear armor

Snipers
Poor - while stationary
Terrible - while chasing
7 Feb 2018, 08:31 AM
#44
avatar of zarok47

Posts: 570

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Feb 2018, 19:24 PMNosliw
I'm not sure why no one else has said the most obvious solution: make the soviet sniper a 1 man squad like the rest of the snipers.

There's no reason that it should be 2 men; the argument that it's unique is weak, and it's more like a gimmick. If you simply make the sniper a clone of the WM sniper, then you don't have to worry about all this "give 222 a +15% accuracy modifier vs snipers" or anything. Plus, buffing 222 doesn't help against anything other than suiciding the 222 for snipers... MAYBE. Once the 222 hits the field in team games (I'm talking about 2v2), and especially when playing against 2x Soviets, the soviets will have a combination of, or all of, the following: conscripts with AT nades, mines planted, AT gun fielded, Penal with PTRS.

I've seen instances of games where good soviet players have 2 snipers in early game, and already have AT nades / AT gun / PTRS in time for fast 222.

I know this for sure. Just last game I played vs a really tip top abusing soviet team on Moscow outskirts. My teammate and I had BOTH fuels during the entire "early game" (first 5 minutes) until we both rushed for Flammenwerfer HTs. We both waited for the flame to finish, and rushed the double sniper at the exact same time. The snipers INSTANTLY retreated, and at the same time, 4 conscripts from both players Oorah'd and AT naded both our halftracks. My partners then died to an AT gun that was already waiting in the sniper's retreat path.

So please people, do not talk about "222 is the counter" when soviets can get every single tool to counter 222 even with 0 fuel income (they simply need 15 fuel for AT nades and their starting fuel to build AT guns or Penals).

So, let me stress again. The fix is not a 222 buff, it's a sniper nerf. Make it 1 man.


Yep, same thing with the AEC hitting at the same time as the 222 too (hah).
M20 and m3 have a small window, but fausts are everwhere. And then there is the kubel...

Snipers (all of them) should be vunerable to infantry flanks and counters to support weapons, not this one man army that nullifies both.
7 Feb 2018, 12:00 PM
#45
avatar of Lenny12346

Posts: 307 | Subs: 3



I found a sniper abuser


I found a biased community member
7 Feb 2018, 12:02 PM
#46
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4340

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Feb 2018, 14:37 PMVipper

That does not actually work because 90 munition it simply too much as an investment for a unit that dies very easily and especially for Ostheer who need all their mu just to stay competitive.

221 and 222 can be both build-able and/or the upgrade can cost manpower/fuel.

Then road will be open then for the 221 to serve as counter to armored cars/sniper and 222 as soft counter to light tanks.
221 for 240 mp 15 fuel
upgrade to 222 100mp 15/20 fuel more amror , invulnerable to small arms and cannon can pen light vehicle and light tanks but lose all the aoe and mg
7 Feb 2018, 12:03 PM
#47
avatar of Lenny12346

Posts: 307 | Subs: 3



I recall one replay where a player had 222 bulletins and he did nothing but spam 222s. I t was fun to watch and his opponent was really salty.

Today I think the 222 is slightly underperforming for its price. I wouldn't mind seeing a slightly cheaper 222, maybe if it cost 20mp and 5F less.



I dunno, I find it really hard to discuss balance in certain areas ^^

But I think I agree regarding the reduced cost. I think that would be a healthy change :3
7 Feb 2018, 12:09 PM
#48
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8605 | Subs: 1

A solution worth trying would be to delay snipers by requiring more tech cost like a second building.

221 for 240 mp 15 fuel
upgrade to 222 100mp 15/20 fuel more amror , invulnerable to small arms and cannon can pen light vehicle and light tanks but lose all the aoe and mg

That could work maybe less manpower more fuel for the upgrade and maybe some HP.
7 Feb 2018, 12:38 PM
#49
avatar of madin2

Posts: 144

Did you guys consider if you buff the 222 against sniper its not just against soviet sniper but UKF Sniper as well? And the the whole thing gets just op
7 Feb 2018, 13:37 PM
#50
avatar of Kurfürst

Posts: 144

221 for 240 mp 15 fuel
upgrade to 222 100mp 15/20 fuel more amror , invulnerable to small arms and cannon can pen light vehicle and light tanks but lose all the aoe and mg


That is more or less how it was originally and it did not work. The base 221 was useless and you had to upgrade it to 222 as soon as it rolled in to make any sense; otherwise it just overlapped with the 251, minus the reinforcement ability.

I think the 222 must find a role in the OST roster. It should work as an incentive to the Allied player to do something about it, react to it being the field. This does not work if you can just drive it away with massed rifle fire, because it just tells you to save fuel and spam just more infantry. For this reason, armor increase vs small arms is a must. It must also have effective DPS just enough vs snipers and infantry that it cannot be simply ignored.

In short, to make it work, it must force you tech at least a bit for infantry AT and/or snares, otherwise OST is just shooting it itself the leg by paying 30 fuel for nothing. The current unit does neither. Even before it was good only when spammed in pairs or triples, but increased fuel costs is prohibitive for this.

Secondly, its role and abilities. The 222 is a weak light vehicle, that basically looses to all similiar tiered vehicles, but could be useful against the lightest ones (UC, CC) or when flanking as combined arms.

In the later game, its viability cannot be maintaiend if it cannot fullfill a useful role - as harassment, or as a flanker - and survive since by that time it can hardly fight anything. Otherwise its role is essentially a recon, for harassment it must also be able to get out of trouble fast and could be perhaps useful to deal with isolated cappings. For this, its abilities are poor. It needs something else, something that is actually useful for that like non-doctrinal smoke or something like overdrive or blitz that boosts its get-in, get-out ability (speed).

7 Feb 2018, 13:57 PM
#51
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 1977

give the 222 the same dmg vs sniper which has the M20 has and all is fine
7 Feb 2018, 14:00 PM
#52
avatar of SupremeStefan

Posts: 1057

give the 222 the same dmg vs sniper which has the M20 has and all is fine


ok but when will be the next patch ?
7 Feb 2018, 15:10 PM
#53
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 1977



ok but when will be the next patch ?

we all know axis was gangbanged last patch....and a new patch will need more than a year...or will comes never

sov is easy cheeasy at moment and need much less skill to compete
7 Feb 2018, 15:30 PM
#54
avatar of Two Years Gone

Posts: 29


This does not work if you can just drive it away with massed rifle fire, because it just tells you to save fuel and spam just more infantry.


This is one of the most frustrating things to witness, especially 1 v 1 or 2 v 2. Here you have this armored car with what's supposed to be an anti-infantry cannon on top and it's getting beaten back by a squad of M1 Garands out in the open.

I think this highlights how much of a relic the Wehrmacht is. Minus a few units and fixes it's maintained the same 'power level' as when it first started, while the other factions have slowly but surely surpassed it. Personally I think it's a good thing - shows how balanced the faction is - but it's caught in a stasis. Fifth man to the grenadier squad? Can't, that would make them better than other standard infantry squads. Nerf their damage? Can't, that would make them absolute crap. Buff the 222? Would make it too strong early game. Nerf it? Then it's garbage. Can't make a dedicated sniper counter to a faction that isn't allowed to change.
7 Feb 2018, 16:46 PM
#55
avatar of YRon²y

Posts: 185



NO NO NO, snipers are fu- snipers are balanced and availble to all fac- no no, snipers are needed because else you can't counter *errrr* others snipers.
Yes, thats why you need them.

And it's not like snipers ignore stuff like veterancy, unit retention, RNG, positioning, flanking and cover right?


+500 :foreveralone:
7 Feb 2018, 17:17 PM
#56
avatar of Alphrum

Posts: 688

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Feb 2018, 12:38 PMmadin2
Did you guys consider if you buff the 222 against sniper its not just against soviet sniper but UKF Sniper as well? And the the whole thing gets just op


and you do know the UFK sniper can fire back effectively at the 222 unlike the soviet sniper right?
7 Feb 2018, 18:00 PM
#57
avatar of 1337Cammy

Posts: 35 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Feb 2018, 07:51 AMArray



Here’s the change - it’s the coax gun


222 Scout Car

The 222 also wasn’t scaling with veterancy as well as other light vehicles and suffered from inconsistent damage output preventing it from tracking infantry properly. We also felt that the auto-cannon was too reliant on AOE for damage. Another concern with the 222 was that it was too cheap relative to its performance,

Manpower cost increased from from 210 to 250
Fuel cost increased from 15 to 30
Veterancy requirements increased from 480/960/1920 to 720/1440/2880
Acceleration increased from 2.4 to 3
Spotting Scopes Sight bonus reduced from 2 to 1.4
Veterancy 1 improves received accuracy to 0.889
Veterancy 3 awards 20 extra HP
Autocannon
* Autocannon accuracy from 0.06/0.04/0.02 to 0.05/0.04/0.03
* Autocannon AOE Near damage reduced from 1 to 0.6
* Autocannon Rate of fire multiplier from 1.4/1.2/1 to 1/1/1
* Autocannon penetration increased from 35 to 40
* Autocannon Mid range distance from 15 to 20

MG42
* MG42 now properly tracks infantry
* MG42 accuracy reduced from 0.6/0.425/0.25 to 0.44/0.385/0.275
* MG42 accuracy increases with veterancy: +10%/+15%/+15%
* MG42 range distance near from 10 to 0
* MG42 0.75 accuracy modifier versus Snipers (down from 1.5).


K my fault.
Mixed stuff together then.

So they nerfed it against snipers, made it worse in vanilla but gave them no minimum range and better vet scaling?
7 Feb 2018, 18:19 PM
#58
avatar of ZombiFrancis

Posts: 2742 | Subs: 1

For the record, I agree with Nosliw that a 1 (wo)man sniper for the soviets would be preferable.

I think the fact that the voice acting refees to a sniper team is the biggest roadblock, to be honest.

If the 2 person sniper team was a preferable design option, I wager UKF would've seen the same. UKF kind of cherry picked effective unit roles, and the 1 man sniper was picked for a very good reason.
7 Feb 2018, 18:20 PM
#59
avatar of Array
Donator 11

Posts: 580



K my fault.
Mixed stuff together then.

So they nerfed it against snipers, made it worse in vanilla but gave them no minimum range and better vet scaling?



Kind of, the point with the mg was that it wasn’t working properly due to bugged tracking so having fixed they had to,try and recalibrate all the accuracy and stuff
7 Feb 2018, 19:39 PM
#60
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 899

jump backJump back to quoted post6 Feb 2018, 19:24 PMNosliw
I'm not sure why no one else has said the most obvious solution: make the soviet sniper a 1 man squad like the rest of the snipers.


Exactly this. People have been suggesting this since alpha.

People would complain more about a 1 man 82HP SU sniper that is similar to OH one. Imagine having better RoF (even if it's worst than OH one), having proper cammo and been able to survive a direct shell to the face.


Why would you change so many other things? Go from 2 models to 1, and increase the HP to 82 to compensate. That's it. No other changes. ROF stays the same (still fighting 4-5 model squads, so why change it) and camo would stay the same. Yes it would survive a direct mortar shell, but right now the mortar is an effective counter BECAUSE it's 2 models, and wiping both is required to remove the sniper.

At 1 model counter-sniping would actually make sense, rather than having the 360mp vs. 90mp risk we have right now. The 222 could stay the same and actually be effective vs. both brit and sov snipers.

The current meta in big games is pretty bad, with penal/guard blobs covering 2 sov sniper squads, which pretty much force an instant retreat to OST 4-man squads. You can't even 222-dive because of the penal PTRS squads covering the snipers. Mortars become to default counter when you need to get rid of multiple models via indirect fire.

Drop it to 1 model and suddenly ost can counter-snipe effectively, fixing that entire problem.
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