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russian armor

Comet

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26 Jan 2018, 16:39 PM
#41
avatar of SupremeStefan

Posts: 1201

if comet is weak then tell me guys why e8 can be like comet i mean expensive 800hp and 45 range its not big deal when i hear here comet is now decent permium medium tank
so comon lets buff e8 to comet level :hansWUT:
26 Jan 2018, 16:52 PM
#42
avatar of Mittens
Donator 11

Posts: 1276

It's a generalist, a TRUE generalist, that has medium TD penetration and utility and armor.
It has also a no brainer accuracy upgrade and is not the supposed heavy TD counter (the firefly has this role), while the panther is supposed to cover it.
I don't get where's bad:
1) It has sensibly better reload than panther
2) Can take any armor but panther frontally
3) Can phosporous shell atg's
4) Better accuracy than a supposed tank hunter unit.
5) Stug penetration.


1. The pen rate of panther v comet is 74-75% chance of pen frontal, comet v panther is 50% (not including the 45 range pen falloff vs panther 50 range falloff)
2. cannot take a beating surely, low frontal armor relative to axis gun pen and armor makes the unit still rather weak to plenty, this issue gets worse in larger game formats even in 2v2 when more than one panther starts to stack up the damage and vet.
3. Phosphorous shell is fair point but can be a little expensive given every time you engage inf you have to use it to effectively push off axis blobs
4. Better accuracy than tank hunters but lower range again meaning you have to close the distance anyways so whats it matter.
5. Stug pen is a valid point but as I stated a few posts up the real issue with the comet is that its simply not cost effective even with its decent pen. Sure its good vs p4s but it can surly get out matched quickly and with little effort. (not to mention its a locked tech which could be take as doctrinal or sub doctrinal if you wanna think about it).

TLDR: stug pen means not a whole lot relative to axis higher armor and simply better guns/range. Needs to be cost efficient in some way and we should treat it like its going to be engaging in at least one if not multiple panthers as most of the time its in that boat anyways outside of a 1v1.


All of your points are fair so dont take it like I'm attacking your views but honestly the Comet simply doesn't stack up for how limited Brit tech and tanks are.
26 Jan 2018, 17:02 PM
#43
avatar of Mittens
Donator 11

Posts: 1276

if comet is weak then tell me guys why e8 can be like comet i mean expensive 800hp and 45 range its not big deal when i hear here comet is now decent permium medium tank
so comon lets buff e8 to comet level :hansWUT:


Fair criticism but the Ez8 is doctrinal (which should be taken as cost) but is also in theory cheaper than a comet. While I wish the pen on the ez8 was was higher its not in the same boat as the Comet as the Ez8 can engage inf and retentively efficient, Comet not so much.
26 Jan 2018, 17:07 PM
#44
avatar of Mittens
Donator 11

Posts: 1276



The comet is not better in AI than either the 85 or the cromwell, It is in fact worse.

The comet has the same shell AOE profile as the Cromwell
The comet has a lesser AOE profile than the 85 and Worse MG damage.
The comet has a slightly Slower reload than both of them.

But these are marginal so it should be similar right?

The major difference that makes it perform to a lesser standard is how its main gun functions differently.To my understanding the comet gun has no collision, I believe this makes it explode on infantry less often and effectively. Cruz described this at some point to my recollection but i don't know where, can't be 100% sure it was never adjusted but i believe it is still unique.

In games ive seen a comet and a cromwell shoot at infantry, the cromwell has performed much better despite having exactly the same aoe and scatter. I have had 30 kill cromwells in a couple games but I can't seem to get a comet with more than 15~. Perhaps this is timing but I certainly think that with the same numbers the comet is not doing the same job which is odd to me.

TLDR; Comet has same AI stats as Cromwell but main gun is coded differently makes it worse in AI.


Im pretty sure they added a projectile at least to the Comet but it used to be a ballistic weapon and basically fired the same way small arms is calculated. Before the addition of the projectile you simply could not attack ground with the comet meaning axis vehicle smoke was 10/10. :romeoMug::romeoMug:


26 Jan 2018, 18:42 PM
#45
avatar of DerKuhlmann

Posts: 445

Comet is fine.
Smoke a stationary target, toss a grenade and get out. That a panther can´t do.
26 Jan 2018, 19:24 PM
#46
avatar of Hon3ynuts

Posts: 818

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Jan 2018, 17:07 PMMittens


Im pretty sure they added a projectile at least to the Comet but it used to be a ballistic weapon and basically fired the same way small arms is calculated. Before the addition of the projectile you simply could not attack ground with the comet meaning axis vehicle smoke was 10/10. :romeoMug::romeoMug:




If they did fix it then it should be exactly like a cromwell but slightly more accurate...mabye ill try to test it in cheat mode later to see which one does better.
26 Jan 2018, 19:48 PM
#47
avatar of Sarantini
Honorary Member Badge
Donator 22

Posts: 2181

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Jan 2018, 01:29 AMNubb3r
Alright then, let me enrich this wonderful thread with hard numbers
(if the site is up to date by now for the concerned units):

Code

Panther Comet
target size 24 22


sight radius 35 35

Code

Panther Comet
accuracy near 0.06 0.06
accuracy far 0.03 0.03
moving accur. modifier 0.50 0.50

scatter max distance 8.00 6.4

area distance far 0.25 1.50
area distance near 0.15 0.25

area dmg multipl. far 0.05 0.20
area dmg multipl. near 1.00 1.00



The Panther has a target size of 24 instead of the Comets 22, but I don't know how that stat is being accounted for when calculating hit/miss, so someone else interpret the surely meaningful significance of this.



Accuracy values get multiplied by the target size of the target unit. This is to balance projectiles against both vehicles and infantry at the same time. So at far range (45)a stationary comet has a 0,03 x 24 = 72% chance to hit the panther. Ofcourse then you will have to calculate the penetration chance which I will not bother with. Note that these percentages are still wrong because the Comet can still hit the Panther even if it rolls a miss but the scatter is low enough to still hit the panther. But that's a lot of variables too calculate via text
27 Jan 2018, 13:31 PM
#48
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930

the comet should be cheaper. The comet should lose to the panther, but right now people seems to over estimate the comet's anti-infantry capability.

remember that the last mega patch substantially nerf the comet's anti-infantry capability as well. Larger scatter + shorter range + slower rotation significantly cut down its killing power against infantry. Plus the nerf to its WP shell. The comet actually took a bigger cut to Anti-infantry than anti-tank.

At the same thing the wehr panther saw a substantial boost to their coaxial and hull mg. They are actually okay at killing infantry as long as it stay stationary. Meanwhile the mg on the comet completely suck.

the comet could probably go down to 470 mp 175 fuel and 16 pop.
27 Jan 2018, 14:04 PM
#49
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

the comet should be cheaper. The comet should lose to the panther, but right now people seems to over estimate the comet's anti-infantry capability.

remember that the last mega patch substantially nerf the comet's anti-infantry capability as well. Larger scatter + shorter range + slower rotation significantly cut down its killing power against infantry. Plus the nerf to its WP shell. The comet actually took a bigger cut to Anti-infantry than anti-tank.

At the same thing the wehr panther saw a substantial boost to their coaxial and hull mg. They are actually okay at killing infantry as long as it stay stationary. Meanwhile the mg on the comet completely suck.

the comet could probably go down to 470 mp 175 fuel and 16 pop.
abig nerf to wp shell right ? and what changed ? they can't kill inf solo unlike the other PW shells ?
27 Jan 2018, 14:08 PM
#50
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930

abig nerf to wp shell right ? and what changed ? they can't kill inf solo unlike the other PW shells ?


and range nerf from 80 to 45.
27 Jan 2018, 14:10 PM
#51
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474



and range nerf from 80 to 45.
that was a bug i think (80 range is more than elefant now right?)
27 Jan 2018, 14:26 PM
#52
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930

that was a bug i think (80 range is more than elefant now right?)


https://community.companyofheroes.com/discussion/67/coh-2-changelog/p5

Cromwell/Comet Smoke Shell/White Phosphorus

We find the range of both abilities (80) and the lethality of the White Phosphorus to be over performing. At the same time, we are introducing a critical fix to both abilities to make them more reliable.

Range of Smoke Shell/White Phosphorus reduced from 80 to 45
Comet White Phosphorus will no longer finish off infantry models, bringing its performance in-line with other White-phosphorus abilities


and any "bug fix" that cut down the range of an ability by half will have affect on balance.
27 Jan 2018, 14:42 PM
#53
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3046

Meh I think it's still pretty good. It has a good combination of speed, armor, and serviceable firepower IMO, and still does a lot better than most other allied mediums (discounting TDs) against axis armor. It is a bit inconsistent against infantry though, especially for a tank of its cost and role. In addition, I think WP shells are one of the best tank abilities in the game.
27 Jan 2018, 14:42 PM
#54
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13150 | Subs: 1


...the comet could probably go down to 470 mp 175 fuel and 16 pop.


Again the Panther and Comet should not be compared in their current setup and roles.

In addition the Comet should not have a have a pop 16. It a main battle tank that can engage both hard and soft targets. Actually specialized units should have a lower pop than multirole units.

Same goes for price.

I one want to compare the Comet with an axis tank that should be the Tiger.

As I also pointed in a previous post Comet has access to number of abilities from vet 0.

Actually it is the Panther that needs a clear role and vet bonuses and abilities to fit that role.

Currently it is supposed to be a counter to heavy armor with HMG. It fails both in fighting heavy armor and in fighting soft targets.
27 Jan 2018, 23:36 PM
#55
avatar of Hon3ynuts

Posts: 818

So i tested it out, Comet vet 0 AI ability seems to be exactly the same as a Cromwell vet 0 in a controlled environment. (they take about 20 seconds to kill vet 0 volks from ~15 range just about every time which i had them do alot).

Limiting factors for its AI performance in live games are then
-Veterancy(speed +/stat bonuses)
-Timing
-Cost for this firepower(same firepower as a 120 fuel tank but paying 185 and more popcap)
28 Jan 2018, 00:52 AM
#56
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 18

So i tested it out, Comet vet 0 AI ability seems to be exactly the same as a Cromwell vet 0 in a controlled environment. (they take about 20 seconds to kill vet 0 volks from ~15 range just about every time which i had them do alot).

Limiting factors for its AI performance in live games are then
-Veterancy(speed +/stat bonuses)
-Timing
-Cost for this firepower(same firepower as a 120 fuel tank but paying 185 and more popcap)


That's because both units have identical AoE scatter; it's just that the Cromwell fires faster from Vet0, and gets actual vet, unlike the Comet.

The Comet has a ton more armor though, so it can linger more and deal that damage, unlike the Cromwell.

You can also compare the AI of either tank to a P4 though; I think that both have worse AoE.

Just like the Panthers, the Comet is in a good spot. They're low-micro late-game units that do their job without becoming obnoxious.

28 Jan 2018, 04:57 AM
#57
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

Can you run the tests at range 45 so can determine if the 185fuel unit is indeed comparable to the 120 fuel one at max range as well?
28 Jan 2018, 05:00 AM
#58
avatar of wandererraven

Posts: 353

Ostheer PZ4 same scatter max Cromwell comet (6.4)
but OKW PZ4 lower scatter max (5.4)
and both pz4 have better AOE Distance (1.875/1.25/0.75)
compare Cromwell (1.5/1/0.25) but comwell better aoe damage (0.2/0.4/1)
than Pz4 (0.05/0.35/1)
but this not my topic now
------
other user say comet and cromwell Coaxial and hull mg is bad spot
let see stat
acc (0.35/0.55/0.7)
burst time 0.75-1 sec
Rate of fire 8
compare T-34 tank
Turret Acc (0.43/0.48/0.53)
Hull acc (0.4/0.45/0.5)
Burst time 3 sec for coaxial and 2 sec for hull
rate of fire 8

I see T-34 mg better AI performance by Burst time
IMO buff some burst time to same level or sightly lower T-34
Is good choice ?
29 Jan 2018, 22:23 PM
#59
avatar of Rocket

Posts: 723

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Jan 2018, 04:19 AMTobis

lmao you also realize the comet shoots at infantry too, right?

The comet has more than 50% more pen than the cromwell and 33% more than the t34-85, while being better at AI than both of them. It's got only 5% less armor than a tiger. It has a smoke shot that rapes AT guns, and nades that let it circle strafe them easily. It's non-doctrinal, and you're complaining that it loses against a tank specifically designed to counter it. I'm not sure what more you expect from this tank.


I will tell you exactly what I expect. For it cost i expect axis infantry to be scared to take too many hits while capping from its main gun. Instead they just ignore it almost as if its not there.
30 Jan 2018, 05:19 AM
#60
avatar of FelixTHM

Posts: 503 | Subs: 1

Rocket start buying generalist units then. Go Centaur + Firefly since you can't understand the concept of an all-rounder battle tank.
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