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russian armor

Unofficial Revamp mod (EFA & WFA & Brits)

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28 Jun 2017, 21:26 PM
#1
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 17

Original post:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/61465/eastern-front-armies-revamp

Mod location:
You can also grab the changes here: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=929737693

Mod "source" files
https://github.com/xxpatch/consmod


Hey everyone!

With the way things are currently going as we wait for GCS to chug along and waiting for the powers that be to grant us permission to begin work once again, the Balance Team has been doing some work on the side to try and work on certain issues and get them tested as we remain on stand-by.

Given that the main factions we want the others to follow are the EFA, we began working on them first and resolving their issues to see how it affects the rest of the game before we work on WFA and Brits.

Any feedback and criticism is welcome!


Disclaimer: Relic does not support or hold the views of the changes. This is a side-project for the Unofficial Team.

Currently any balance mods that Mr. Smith, Miragefla or GGTheMachine are working on are not part of a planned or future balance patch for COH2. They are currently working on community balance mods out of their own interest and the changes in said mods are not intended for the live game (automatch).

When the time comes to work with the community on curated balance changes once again, there will be a clear distinction and communication coming from Relic around the initiative (i.e. the Winter Balance Preview).


EFA changes
The purpose of this mod is to do an overhaul of the EFA factions, fix unusable units/abilities, and discover interesting, non-abusive, ways to spice up the meta. Fixing the EFA factions will also help us gain a better insight as to what “EFA-level” really means.

Our ultimate goal is to grow this mod to the direction of including all 5 factions. However, in order to be able to establish a common base-line for all factions, we need something to compare them to.


General Changes


Soviets


OST


28 Jun 2017, 21:28 PM
#2
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 17

WFA & Brits changes

OKW


USF


Brits

28 Jun 2017, 21:29 PM
#3
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 17

28 Jun 2017, 21:33 PM
#4
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1


Imo the changes to M36 are in the wrong direction. The unit is simply too good at dealing with all type of vehicles.

For instance the Ostheer Stug had its penetration lower and it can deal with heavies and thus has the role as a counter to mediums while on the other hand the Panther has the role of a counter to heavies.

On the other hand the M36 with high accuracy (and accuracy on the move, long range (still out-ranges all Ostheer vehicles accept Elephant), high penetration, high damage and sight bonus can counter all Ostheer vehicles from Stug, to PZ IV, to Brumbars, to Tigers even to Panthers.

The chances of scoring a "natural hit" and penetrate a PZIV at range 55 (15 units away from PZIV can even return fire) are simply too high at 0.88.

The change of scoring a "natural hit" and penetrating medium tanks at range 50+ need to go down in the vicinity of 50-55%.

If one want to turn M36 into buffed M10 simply make M10 stock and M36 doctrinal
28 Jun 2017, 21:34 PM
#5
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

Calliope
Part of the problem with Calliope is that its high durability allows it fire volley from point blank range with devastating results. Increasing minimum range would allow the unit to be better balanced.

M2HB .50Cal
Remove sprint from unit in line with Soviet HMGs.
28 Jun 2017, 21:38 PM
#6
avatar of Chocoboknight88

Posts: 393

Lieutenant
We are adding some utility to the Lieutenant to make him a viable asset for the long-haul.

- Population from 8 to 7
- Cost from 300 to 280 (replacement squad)
- No longer starts with a BAR. Can upgrade a single BAR for 60 munitions.
- Now has ‘Push Forward’ ability. When active on a friendly squad, the target unit will move faster. 15 munitions, 10 second duration. Range 30; 60 second cooldown.
- Squad reinforce cost standardized to 28 per model.

QoL/Bugfixes:
- Fixed an issue where it was not possible to access grenade abilities when selected together with riflemen squads


Yes! Thank you! That was annoying me for the longest time! :D
28 Jun 2017, 21:43 PM
#7
avatar of capiqua
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 985 | Subs: 2

IMO:

-OKW has entire in T0 and USF should also lay mines by Vehicle Crews.
-Rush Stuart and PanzerII
-Rush OKW FHQ compared to US, maybe unlockable in T4 even though it remains in MedicTruck.
28 Jun 2017, 22:09 PM
#8
avatar of miragefla
Developer Relic Badge

Posts: 1304 | Subs: 13

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Jun 2017, 21:33 PMVipper

Imo the changes to M36 are in the wrong direction. The unit is simply too good at dealing with all type of vehicles.

For instance the Ostheer Stug had its penetration lower and it can deal with heavies and thus has the role as a counter to mediums while on the other hand the Panther has the role of a counter to heavies.

On the other hand the M36 with high accuracy (and accuracy on the move, long range (still out-ranges all Ostheer vehicles accept Elephant), high penetration, high damage and sight bonus can counter all Ostheer vehicles from Stug, to PZ IV, to Brumbars, to Tigers even to Panthers.

The chances of scoring a "natural hit" and penetrate a PZIV at range 55 (15 units away from PZIV can even return fire) are simply too high at 0.88.

The change of scoring a "natural hit" and penetrating medium tanks at range 50+ need to go down in the vicinity of 50-55%.

If one want to turn M36 into buffed M10 simply make M10 stock and M36 doctrinal


The reason for this is USF has only ONE AT vehicle in their core line-up unlike all the other factions.

-Ostheer has Panthers and Stug Gs
-Soviets have an SU-76 and SU-85
-OKW has Panthers and Jagdpanzers
-Brits lack dual AT vehicles (AEC doesn't count) but compensate by having Comets or Churchills.

Furthermore, almost all Allied TDs outsight the Jackson in some way through abilities or upgrades. Fireflies get 45 with the TC, SU-85 has focus sight. Jackson only slightly better sight at 40.

USF don't have alternatives.
28 Jun 2017, 22:09 PM
#9
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4183 | Subs: 4

I disagree with OKW starting with now 20 less manpower AND a 90 manpower less worth unit that inevitably dies and is map dependant. OKW already starts with the lowest amount of resources in the game and I don't think volks spam is going away any time soon, how are you supposed to compete with 280 MP and 300 MP squads from the start of the game that'll arrive at the same time now?
28 Jun 2017, 22:26 PM
#10
avatar of miragefla
Developer Relic Badge

Posts: 1304 | Subs: 13

I disagree with OKW starting with now 20 less manpower AND a 90 manpower less worth unit that inevitably dies and is map dependant. OKW already starts with the lowest amount of resources in the game and I don't think volks spam is going away any time soon, how are you supposed to compete with 280 MP and 300 MP squads from the start of the game that'll arrive at the same time now?


OKW resources went up to 380 from 340. Typo on our part.
28 Jun 2017, 22:43 PM
#11
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



The reason for this is USF has only ONE AT vehicle in their core line-up unlike all the other factions.

-Ostheer has Panthers and Stug Gs
-Soviets have an SU-76 and SU-85
-OKW has Panthers and Jagdpanzers
-Brits lack dual AT vehicles (AEC doesn't count) but compensate by having Comets or Churchills.

Furthermore, almost all Allied TDs outsight the Jackson in some way through abilities or upgrades. Fireflies get 45 with the TC, SU-85 has focus sight. Jackson only slightly better sight at 40.

USF don't have alternatives.

USF can easily deal with mediums with Bazookas, Stuarts, ATG and Shermans. They do not need a units that makes German mediums obsolete.

Keep in mind that Stugs/Su-85/Su-76 can be flanked by medium while the M36 has bonus vision and a turret making it allot harder to be flanked.

Designing a M36 that can deal with all vehicles is simply bad design, especially since USF infantry can deal with most axis infantry.

M36 should either be designed as "heavy tank counter" or it should simply swap places with the doctrinal m10.
28 Jun 2017, 23:19 PM
#12
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4183 | Subs: 4



OKW resources went up to 380 from 340. Typo on our part.


Thanks for clearing that up. I think that is "acceptable" parameters but still OKW is being reduced on its total manpower. Kubel is still map dependant.

As far as other things go:
  • The M20 seems far to overpowered for its price. While you've reduced the accuracy significantly at close range, it'll still be a semi consistant and dealing damage similar to the kubel. In addition though it now has 50 munition immobilize mines that deal 400 damage IIRC. You're going to have to double check on the damage it's been awhile for that stat for me. However with a 7 second lay time and an immobilize as a result I find that to be far to punishing.
  • Adding to the m20 mine issue for OKW is smoke grenades are not unlocked with a sweeper (in the notes at least). I think this does push you towards the schreck more but since you'll always want a sweeper due to mines/demos against any faction you're going to have to construct now 2 SP since you start with the kubel. that's 600 manpower.
  • JP4 is a possible issue due to 60 range detection. If it works like the kubel and only shows on the minimap then you're forced to attack ground that should be ok. If it actually gives sight then that's insanely broken. It'll be a mini JT. Possible overperformance on certain teamgame maps (road to karkov, port of hamburg).
  • Elite armor looks like it could possibly enter the meta. HEAT is still great, panzer commander looks great now and ST is still alright. Panther with a panzer commander will now have the sight range at the same attack range as a comet. I'll be buying that a lot on my panthers should this patch go through.
  • Obersoldaten look potentially overpowered. Notes don't display any nerfs aside from the vet 4 stat buff being removed I believe. 340 manpower for now a faster scaling unit that are terminators once they get their vet 2 (vet 3 in notes).
  • JT vet 2 supporting fire 33% range increase. Currently I'm not 100% sure on the range of the supporting fire but it is well over the current 85 range. It has to be AT LEAST 100. +33% is a massive boost to that abilities range and its HE shells effective vs infantry. Maybe the scatter will be really bad as i'm overlooking that but that is cross map infantry wiping material on retreat points.
  • M4A3 is probably the strongest medium if these buffs go through. The unit was already great for its price, now it'll be consistant and great.
  • Surprised no changes to the captain's "On me!" Removes suppression, gives +20% accuracy and a +20% RA buff to all affected squads.


Aside from that most other things look pretty ok. Rear echelon look potentially an issue since their stats were not changed. They'll still be god awful at range but they're semi decent with upgrades. Volley fire looks either alright or potentially an issue with RE spam.
28 Jun 2017, 23:19 PM
#13
avatar of frostbite

Posts: 593

just used the m36 the range is also a huge loss, its not so op as u might think, and pop cap fix hurts them bad. overall good change.
28 Jun 2017, 23:30 PM
#14
avatar of ClassyDavid

Posts: 424 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Jun 2017, 22:43 PMVipper

USF can easily deal with mediums with Bazookas, Stuarts, ATG and Shermans. They do not need a units that makes German mediums obsolete.

Keep in mind that Stugs/Su-85/Su-76 can be flanked by medium while the M36 has bonus vision and a turret making it allot harder to be flanked.

Designing a M36 that can deal with all vehicles is simply bad design, especially since USF infantry can deal with most axis infantry.

M36 should either be designed as "heavy tank counter" or it should simply swap places with the doctrinal m10.


The main thing is the Jackson still has a long reload time almost as worse as the Firefly which results it not being the optimal counter other medium tanks. Saying a tank destroyer can is a too much of hard counter to all tanks is a little baffling given. I'd agree with toning down the far accuracy slightly against medium tanks if these changes prove to be a bit much but the Jackson is still a paper thin medium tank that can be taken down fast if too reckless with it.
28 Jun 2017, 23:32 PM
#15
avatar of frostbite

Posts: 593

-i was thinking giving IR patherfinders 2 shells more at vet 3? dont need more range.
-the dodge lost armor? which is well needed i think u should give some of it back.
-E8 are not to good maybe give it some kind of buff vs armor. maybe 20 pen since it shoots slow.
-251 HT inf awareness is only 10 munis and can see infantry on map at huge ranges need a cost increase as this is a super no brainer i spam it every time its ready.
-calliope needs like 15 fuel cost reduced from all the nerfed its been getting.
-kubels armor from front should be 2.7 rear 2.4
-pack howi needs a aoe buff like the leig.
28 Jun 2017, 23:39 PM
#16
avatar of frostbite

Posts: 593



Thanks for clearing that up. I think that is "acceptable" parameters but still OKW is being reduced on its total manpower. Kubel is still map dependant.

As far as other things go:
  • The M20 seems far to overpowered for its price. While you've reduced the accuracy significantly at close range, it'll still be a semi consistant and dealing damage similar to the kubel. In addition though it now has 50 munition immobilize mines that deal 400 damage IIRC. You're going to have to double check on the damage it's been awhile for that stat for me. However with a 7 second lay time and an immobilize as a result I find that to be far to punishing.
  • Adding to the m20 mine issue for OKW is smoke grenades are not unlocked with a sweeper (in the notes at least). I think this does push you towards the schreck more but since you'll always want a sweeper due to mines/demos against any faction you're going to have to construct now 2 SP since you start with the kubel. that's 600 manpower.
  • JP4 is a possible issue due to 60 range detection. If it works like the kubel and only shows on the minimap then you're forced to attack ground that should be ok. If it actually gives sight then that's insanely broken. It'll be a mini JT. Possible overperformance on certain teamgame maps (road to karkov, port of hamburg).
  • Elite armor looks like it could possibly enter the meta. HEAT is still great, panzer commander looks great now and ST is still alright. Panther with a panzer commander will now have the sight range at the same attack range as a comet. I'll be buying that a lot on my panthers should this patch go through.
  • Obersoldaten look potentially overpowered. Notes don't display any nerfs aside from the vet 4 stat buff being removed I believe. 340 manpower for now a faster scaling unit that are terminators once they get their vet 2 (vet 3 in notes).
  • JT vet 2 supporting fire 33% range increase. Currently I'm not 100% sure on the range of the supporting fire but it is well over the current 85 range. It has to be AT LEAST 100. +33% is a massive boost to that abilities range and its HE shells effective vs infantry. Maybe the scatter will be really bad as i'm overlooking that but that is cross map infantry wiping material on retreat points.
  • M4A3 is probably the strongest medium if these buffs go through. The unit was already great for its price, now it'll be consistant and great.
  • Surprised no changes to the captain's "On me!" Removes suppression, gives +20% accuracy and a +20% RA buff to all affected squads.


Aside from that most other things look pretty ok. Rear echelon look potentially an issue since their stats were not changed. They'll still be god awful at range but they're semi decent with upgrades. Volley fire looks either alright or potentially an issue with RE spam.

-m20 isnt meant to lay reigal like mines, usa dont even have regular mines that are not doctrinal.
-m4a3 is a doctrinal medium tank which is in a commander that isnt to good since dshka been nerfed in the revamp.
-i used ober they are not op at all, use tanks to fight them not inf to MP bleed them fast.
-captain on me was already nerfed last patch and they get suppressed now right after.
28 Jun 2017, 23:44 PM
#17
avatar of ShadowLinkX37
Director of Moderation Badge

Posts: 4183 | Subs: 4


-m20 isnt meant to lay reigal like mines, usa dont even have regular mines that are not doctrinal.
-m4a3 is a doctrinal medium tank which is in a commander that isnt to good since dshka been nerfed in the revamp.
-i used ober they are not op at all, use tanks to fight them not inf to MP bleed them fast.
-captain on me was already nerfed last patch and they get suppressed now right after.


In patch notes it stated they wanted to change the M20 from a shock unit to a scout/minelayer. M4A3 is the stock medium sherman in the major tier, M4A3E8 is the ez8 on rifle company.
28 Jun 2017, 23:48 PM
#18
avatar of ClassyDavid

Posts: 424 | Subs: 2

More in depth look at the rest of the notes that caught my eye

M20 - Increase its MP up to 260 and the M8 mines back at 60 or even 70 but keep the 7 second mine laying time
Jackson - Changes are great and the buffs are good in exchange for the higher cost. Look forward to using it

Scott - Great now that it's consistent instead of a RNG machine and the lower cool down on barrages will make them far more useful and have greater utility.

Pack Howitzer - Again the lower barrage cool down will help with forcing the enemy re-locate often and separating the barrages cool downs is also nice.

Rear Echelon - Finally making them cost what they're worth. Volley Fire buff will keep them from dying like flies but the mine sweeper upgrade should not allow flamer thrower. Got to keep it fair to the Germans.

LT - Good to his Thompson isn't costing 50 MP anymore but I do wonder of this new ability. Maybe a increased accuracy on a single squad or decrease cool down one? Sprinting a squad up to flank is certainly useful though.

Air Dropped Weapons - Should be munitions as this would allow room to save up for Paratroopers and fit nicely with that. Maybe 80 munitions for .50cal and 100 for AT gun?

29 Jun 2017, 00:00 AM
#19
avatar of frostbite

Posts: 593



In patch notes it stated they wanted to change the M20 from a shock unit to a scout/minelayer. M4A3 is the stock medium sherman in the major tier, M4A3E8 is the ez8 on rifle company.

thought u meant m4c and i just played usf in the revamp the HE shells were not op they still miss a ton and dont squad wipe things very often. i didnt get 1 wipe in 4 games with new changes. and wats wrong with the m20? its acc was like 75 and went dont to 40 or something like that? thats a huge anti inf nerf
29 Jun 2017, 00:12 AM
#20
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1



The main thing is the Jackson still has a long reload time almost as worse as the Firefly which results it not being the optimal counter other medium tanks. Saying a tank destroyer can is a too much of hard counter to all tanks is a little baffling given. I'd agree with toning down the far accuracy slightly against medium tanks if these changes prove to be a bit much but the Jackson is still a paper thin medium tank that can be taken down fast if too reckless with it.


In this patch Stug has only 10 more frontal armor than M36 but less HP, less accuracy, less range,less damage, less sight and far less penetrations.

The M36 is far more forgiving than the stug, Su-76, Su-85 if one "is too reckless with it", due to sight bonus, turret, and speed.

The fact that Su-76, Su-85, Firefly, and M36 can snipe PZIV well beyond their range makes PZIV an expensive later version of T70 having a limited window of opportunity.

The chances to score a "natural hit" on mediums at max range simply needs to way down so buffing the accuracy of the M10 and M36 is a step in the wrong direction. Their accuracy should go down not up.
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