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Unofficial Revamp mod (EFA & WFA & Brits)

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29 Jun 2017, 13:09 PM
#61
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 18


If you actually had the decency to actually listen to feedback before instead of just trying to shovel down your own playing style on everyone else's throat, people and Relic would actually consider bother with your mod.


If you're just here to cherrypick what you don't like from the notes, actually spend more time to do this properly next time.

This time you will not mistake major buffs as nerfs:

Bullshit:



But the craziest one is the nerfing Panther. The WFA BP and EFA mod acutally did akinda fixed what was wrong with it, its poor moving accuracy and lackluster damage.. so lets just nerf the moving accuracy of the OKW one, because THAT makes sense LOL. And then hide behind a completely pointless extra tech upgrade.


Facts:



Schwerer Panzer Headquarters (T4)
- Cost to deploy to 100/60: Starts with Jagdpanzer and Obers
Armored Assault Groups upgrade for 100/60 unlocks the Panzer IV and Panther. Must be re-researched if building is destroyed. Required for the King Tiger. Must be re-purchased if destroyed. KT requires the upgrade to be purchased only once to access after all trucks are deployed.
- Gun must be bought for 120 munitions. Can now be issued attack commands.
- Projectile no longer collides with terrain



Panther
- Combat Blitz bonuses changed (refer to King Tiger)
- Population from 16 to 18
- Moving scatter from 1.7 to 2 (to match other tanks)
- Moving accuracy from 0.65 to 5 (to match other tanks)
- Mid accuracy increased to revamp-mod OST Panther
- Vet3 armor bonus removed (old Vet2)
- Vet2 bonus: provides +10 sight when stationary after 5 seconds.
- Vet4 bonus: Improves Combat Blitz
- Cost from 490/200 to 510/185.


Funfact:
- 100/60 + 100/60 = 200/120 = current Schwerer Panzer Headquarters price

Even more fun fact:
- The OKW Panther can actually deploy 15 fuel faster in mod version than the live version

What the change actually does is it allows you to deploy Obers/JP4 60 FU faster, so that you don't have to float MP like crazy.

So I can't even comprehend how you could ever mistake this buff for a nerf. Unless you are trying really hard to cherrypick.

So, yeah. Reading is OK. Comprehension is better. Testing your theory(crafting) in practice (e.g.., by launching the mod) is even better.
29 Jun 2017, 13:34 PM
#62
avatar of PanzerGeneralForever

Posts: 1070

I feel like killing the OKW schwere hq will be the deciding factor in so many games... Even more than it is now since it's required for kt
29 Jun 2017, 13:37 PM
#63
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 18

I feel like killing the OKW schwere hq will be the deciding factor in so many games... Even more than it is now since it's required for kt


You can still build your KT after having researched the Battlegroups once, even if you lose your FlakHQ.

If you didn't research Battlegroups before FlakHQ went down, you didn't lose that much resources, and you can still get a replacement FlakHQ up to call in JP4s.

The change is only such that you can build your KT from T0 (with build-time), without requiring a commander pick.
29 Jun 2017, 13:47 PM
#64
avatar of Alphrum

Posts: 680

whats the jacksons current moving accuracy penalty?
29 Jun 2017, 13:47 PM
#65
avatar of RedT3rror

Posts: 741 | Subs: 2

I really like the new Kübelwagen, however putting it as starting unit is just a no-go.
KT buffs should be reverted, the AoE changes are just too much.
Jackson can be countered too easily with a JP4. Just put it's HP to 560/640 and you have a decent vehicle.

Btw, did you remove the original vet2 bonus of the Obersoldaten?
Also, the damage profile of the ISG is pretty nice, yet I think the unit is too spammable with 280mp, considering its good AoE performance.
29 Jun 2017, 13:50 PM
#66
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 2208



If I had any say in it I would delete all of these loitering planes from the game. Takes zero skill. You don´t even need to aim. You cant have OKW T4 or Ostwinds everywhere. I remember a couple days ago on Crossroads. P47 loitering run at middle of the map killed my parked P4 which was repairing at base. Bugs like that happen too often. P47 attack targets that are well out of the "circle" all the time.


LOL you are just butthurt because you lost a command panther + stuka yesterday to P47 loiter cos you drove into the circle like an imbecile, I watched the game
29 Jun 2017, 13:50 PM
#67
avatar of Alphrum

Posts: 680

I really like the new Kübelwagen, however putting it as starting unit is just a no-go.
KT buffs should be reverted, the AoE changes are just too much.
Jackson can be countered too easily with a JP4. Just put it's HP to 560/640 and you have a decent vehicle.

Btw, did you remove the original vet2 bonus of the Obersoldaten?


isn't the jp4 specifically designed to counter the jackson?
29 Jun 2017, 13:52 PM
#68
avatar of RedT3rror

Posts: 741 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jun 2017, 13:50 PMAlphrum


isn't the jp4 specifically designed to counter the jackson?


They are both tank destroyers. So, no.
29 Jun 2017, 14:00 PM
#69
avatar of Alphrum

Posts: 680



They are both tank destroyers. So, no.


its a very different type of tank destroyer with fixed gun, lower pen and high rate of fire which means it suppose to counter low armored vehicles the jackson. As of this moment jackson hard counters every single OKW tank except the jp4 (with good micro you can still beat the jp4), but no you want it to hard counter that too
29 Jun 2017, 14:04 PM
#70
avatar of RedT3rror

Posts: 741 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jun 2017, 14:00 PMAlphrum

with good micro you can still beat the jp4


You must really suck at this game to lose your JP4 to a Jackson.
29 Jun 2017, 14:12 PM
#71
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8524 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jun 2017, 13:47 PMAlphrum
whats the jacksons current moving accuracy penalty?



jump backJump back to quoted post28 Jun 2017, 15:08 PMVipper


And all TD wit range above 50 should have their accuracy lowered.

In addition it only the Allied TD that have the same accuracy for more range that actually get bonus accuracy with veterancy allowing to snipe all allied vehicles.

Vehicle Range // accuracy // accuracy on move // accuracy bonuses
Stug // 50 // 6%/5%/4% // 0.50% //
Panther // 50 // 6%/4.50%/3% // 0.50% //
JP // 60 // 6%/5%/4% // 0.50% // x115% vet 4
Firefly // 60 // 8%/7%/5% // 0.75% // x130% vet 3
Su-85 // 60 // 5.50%/4.50%/4% // 0.50% // x130% vet 2
M36 // 60 // 5%/4.50%/3.50% // 0.75% // x130% vet 2
M36 AP // 60 // 6%/5%/4% // 0.75% // x130% vet 2



As you can see M36 is more accurate on the move from its axis counter parts and from Su-85 and get accuracy vet bonuses and more accuracy from AP rounds.

To make thing even worse axis medium tanks are more expensive because they have more armor but any advantage armor gives them is totally negate by the "heavy TD" allies have since they can hit and penetrate them reliably.

"Medium TD" should not be able to penetrate reliably tanks at max range while "heavy TD" should not be able to score "natural hits" vs tank at max range.

The changes of TD with range +50 to score a "natural hit" on medium tank at max range should be down to 50-55% in order to make investing in medium tank worth it since they have usually have around 100% to penetrate and some of them deal 200 damage.

29 Jun 2017, 14:34 PM
#72
avatar of ZombiFrancis

Posts: 2742 | Subs: 1



If you actually had the decency to invest the 30 minutes required to playtest the mod, before storming here to pour your vitriol, you would realise what a fool you're making of yourself here.

We welcome all critical opinion. However, the critical opinion needs to be based on facts, not misrepresentation of them. The only way to get the facts right is to try the mod.


Alright, sure, but you realize you are putting the onus onto the community after the fact? I am not seeing a process to these changes. The changes come first, and then the community has to respond? The only option is to be reactionary.

Then people start to get mad too and then people's critical opinions get modded.

I mean, it cant be too hard to propose changes before implementing them into your mod. It'd help screen a lot of these discussions.
29 Jun 2017, 14:55 PM
#73
avatar of Alphrum

Posts: 680



Alright, sure, but you realize you are putting the onus onto the community after the fact? I am not seeing a process to these changes. The changes come first, and then the community has to respond? The only option is to be reactionary.

Then people start to get mad too and then people's critical opinions get modded.

I mean, it cant be too hard to propose changes before implementing them into your mod. It'd help screen a lot of these discussions.


thers no harm putting changes into the mod as long as its not in the live game. Gives chance to people test out the changes quickly. Most changes come from community responses btw, but i do agree were ther have been some random changes not by the community but the preferences of the modders themselves which imo is a bit unfair
29 Jun 2017, 14:58 PM
#74
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 18



Alright, sure, but you realize you are putting the onus onto the community after the fact? I am not seeing a process to these changes. The changes come first, and then the community has to respond? The only option is to be reactionary.

Then people start to get mad too and then people's critical opinions get modded.

I mean, it cant be too hard to propose changes before implementing them into your mod. It'd help screen a lot of these discussions.


For the kind of changes we are doing:

- We first ask for the counsel of the top players (e.g,. by using the same channels we used to gather feedback for the GCS patch) for what is missing from the game.

- This is usually the same kind of feedback that has been proposed over and over again and rejected by Relic on the basis of "scope" (e.g., DSHK changes, call-in fixes, OKW late-game, repair-speed normalization)

- Then, Miragefla and I brainstorm over the entire faction to isolate and resolve unused/overused features

- Then we individually drag people that know their mettle to weigh in on the non no-brainer changes (e.g,. we asked Luvnest and Talisman about what to do with Penals)

- Then, Miragefla and I put the time required to add the required changes to a mod

- We reiterate with the people that know their factions to give us idea about making factions more fun and interesting (e.g., DevM offered us an amazing amount of feedback for USF).

- We then, playtest the mod with our friends for 1-2 weeks to fix bugs and see how "fun" the changes actually feel

- Then, for every change we do, we sit back and try to picture how certain changes would "scale" if more teammates are added. For this, we've been abusing Sturmpanther's counsel, since the guy is literally in all top3(?) 3v3 and 4v4 teams.

- Then, when we feel confident we announce the actual patchnotes (USF changes may have been in since v1.6?)

- Then, we gather feedback from the general audience about how to treat the non-mission-critical stuff (e.g., we gathered good feedback for Soviet FHQ, FRPs, Artillery Officer, which we implemented).

This is roughly the same workflow we used for all 4 factions so far (the ordering might change, depending on the availability of feedback). Immediately opening suggestions to the broad audience without a concrete plan means we'll get stuck debating this forever.

The larger the committee, the more time you have to spend coordinating; especially if the committee doesn't have the same view of the game, rank-wise.

The purpose of the mod is to put together many good ideas, see if those ideas can be made to play well with each other, and evaluate whether the emerging meta is an interesting destination to take the game to.
29 Jun 2017, 16:16 PM
#75
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 18

I really like the new Kübelwagen, however putting it as starting unit is just a no-go.


Starting point-wise, OKW infantry has to be as strong as live version, so that OKW has a chance vs the openings Soviets and USF have to throw at them in 1v1.

We didn't want to nerf the Luchs, since that's the only reason to ever build MechHQ.

Therefore, we tried to stop the habitual OKW snowballing by nerfing their initial push with Sturmpio.

Note that a starting Volks unit could potentially be more lethal than a starting Sturmpio. This is because at Vet0 Volks already trade very well with allied infantry (except for Tommies), and especially with engineer squads.

Sturmpios, you can harass them from long-range with engineers and make them move out of garrisons. Volks can just build their own cover, and you will not be able to push them off until Luchs arives.

The new kubelwagen is meant to give you an early resource advantage so that you can play aggressively. After the midgame, any resources you committed to Volks will make them perform as defensive infantry at best (since they will get outscaled). Then, it's the time for Elite infantry and armour to help you on the offensive.

ISG and garrison changes are meant to make garrison-play less cancerous. That way, even if you lose the initial garrison-rush, you can still contest them later on.


KT buffs should be reverted, the AoE changes are just too much.


KT was mostly nerfed, except for the fuel price.

AoE was reduced (but the relevant change was written confusingly in the OP, which made it read like a buff).


Jackson can be countered too easily with a JP4. Just put it's HP to 560/640 and you have a decent vehicle.


Maybe. Do note that JP4 is not the same as in live-version, though, and Jackson Vet1 is actually useful.


Btw, did you remove the original vet2 bonus of the Obersoldaten?


Statwise, Obersoldaten get:
- Their original vet1-vet3 combat bonuses as Vet1-Vet3-Vet5
- A suppression ability (now at Vet2)
- Passive sprint (now at Vet4)


Also, the damage profile of the ISG is pretty nice, yet I think the unit is too spammable with 280mp, considering its good AoE performance.


Note that the ranges for ISG are 70 autoattack and 90 barrage. Barrage double-tap has been fixed, which means you can't use it to target moving targets easily.

With FRP nerfed and range nerfed, there's absolutely no way you would ever want to spam ISGs anymore. The cheap price could be helpful in buying replacement ISGs though, in case you ever want smoke.

29 Jun 2017, 16:38 PM
#76
avatar of Mcq_knight

Posts: 43



Starting point-wise, OKW infantry has to be as strong as live version, so that OKW has a chance vs the openings Soviets and USF have to throw at them in 1v1.

We didn't want to nerf the Luchs, since that's the only reason to ever build MechHQ.

Therefore, we tried to stop the habitual OKW snowballing by nerfing their initial push with Sturmpio.

Note that a starting Volks unit could potentially be more lethal than a starting Sturmpio. This is because at Vet0 Volks already trade very well with allied infantry (except for Tommies), and especially with engineer squads.

Sturmpios, you can harass them from long-range with engineers and make them move out of garrisons. Volks can just build their own cover, and you will not be able to push them off until Luchs arives.

The new kubelwagen is meant to give you an early resource advantage so that you can play aggressively. After the midgame, any resources you committed to Volks will make them perform as defensive infantry at best (since they will get outscaled). Then, it's the time for Elite infantry and armour to help you on the offensive.


While i truly appreciate all the work you guys have been doing..... the Kubel change is 10000% wrong. As many have mentioned... and you have neglected.... is that this is an early game unit. Even more so with the armour nerfs.

Unacceptable to be forced to have that unit as it is near useless on urban maps past the 10m mark.

How you can say that volks would be an unfair when you can look at IS that can build TRENCHES is a bit much.

Again the late game uselessness of this unit cannot be overstated. It is very unfair to be forced into that unit to start.
29 Jun 2017, 16:46 PM
#77
avatar of Tanker

Posts: 53 | Subs: 1

So OKW can now get t4 to lock down a sector at 120muni + 130 fuel (extra 15 fuel for medics) while rushing a eraly luchs cost you 125 fuel. Who think this is a good idea to have such early T4? It gonna ruins allies day when they see a T4 sitting on middle of the map at 8 minutes mark with no proper counter.
I suggest the gun upgrade should be locked behind Armored Assult Group upgrade.
29 Jun 2017, 16:53 PM
#78
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 8524 | Subs: 1

Moving accuracy on TDs (especially unturreted ones)

The moving accuracy serve mostly as way for infantry to survive from vehicles that chase them on retreat. Since TDs pose little such tread imo their accuracy penalty could be removed and their accuracy readjusted.

Since most unturreted tds run the risk to be circle strafed from the units they are supposed to counter not being penalized for moving will probably prove beneficial.

Maybe one could add it as vet bonus if they prove to efficient.
29 Jun 2017, 17:04 PM
#79
avatar of Outsider_Sidaroth

Posts: 1305 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jun 2017, 09:58 AMVipper

And what is it Job?


It's job is to kill Tanks!
Not to get killed by what it's supposed to counter, as it happens way too often in live due to poor scouting options because it has barely anymore HP than a Stuart/Scott, now we might finally see it being an actually useful unit than something you build out of desperation because Sherman spam won't cut it.
29 Jun 2017, 17:16 PM
#80
avatar of ruzen
Patrion 15

Posts: 243

I like the change how Obersoldatens can now "theoretically" deploy faster which could open new possibilities. You rarely see an obersoldaten in a game and by the time you get to build one your infantry spots were already filled with volks+sturm+falls or jaegers.
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