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russian armor

Tech test Design feedback

3 Feb 2023, 10:31 AM
#41
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17866 | Subs: 8

This discussion is going nowhere lmao.

That was rather obvious from get go, when it was proven without a question that one side of the discussion never even used the feature he claims OP and builds all argument around it.
3 Feb 2023, 23:07 PM
#42
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 1287


You're missing the point. You can tune how much recovery is worth it by just adjusting a simple slider of how much original cost you need to pay. If the truck is fragile, artillery could just shoot the wreck both to remove the wreck as well as to attack the recovery vehicle. Which in turn is not for free, too. But all this discussion is just for dives. Most vehicles die near the front line, where the long recovery process is way more risky.

That not all factions have it can indeed cause balance issues, but my point was that I do not agree with your specific suggestion due to aforementioned reasons. The current system is design wise fine. If that's true for balance as well, we will see.


I also noticed most fresh wrecks are so fragile they can be easily ran over, and don't seem to bounce shots like wrecks in coh2
4 Feb 2023, 08:03 AM
#43
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3592 | Subs: 1



The biggest problem is that it punishes you for making good plays. Trading for example a greyhound/8rad for 1-2 squads probably isnt worth it anymore (especially vs dak since its.............nondoc XD ).

Base diving practically cannot be done unless you are ending the game or 100% know your opponent cannot recover your vehicles. Whats even more ludicrous is the fact that only TWO of the four factions actually have it. So DAK can dive brits no problems, but god forbid if you try to counter dive.


Edit: Not to mention its already plenty fucking strong, it gets combat repairs. so you have to target it with AT (meaning its basically tanking damage for your tanks, which is an incredibly good thing and puts you ahead in trades) or they have to do far more damage while you cycle in tanks while pressuring, and since your opponent (if they are wehr) dont get anything like that, they inevitably fall behind in the trading and eventually lose. I did this vs cataclaw with great success.


I understand what you're saying but do you believe the cost of building a recovery vehicle plus the recovery cost of the wreck will be worth it? Maybe for a tiger but I doubt it for other vehicles. I tried to recover a medium tank once and it took age to do it and on top of it you still need to repair it afterward.
4 Feb 2023, 12:51 PM
#44
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3102 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Feb 2023, 21:55 PMVipper

When it comes to dives in coh2 it is safer to dive contrary to what you have claimed:


In coh2 there is a slight chance the the vehicle might be abounded, in COH3 there is high probability that the defended might be able to recover his artillery vehicle and the vehicle that dived (for a cost).

As for "just adjusting a simple slider of how much original cost you need to pay" imo there is nothing simple about that. One has to balance the cost across all modes and so accurate that its worth building the recovery track but not being op and one has to do that for all vehicles and all commanders.

You didn't understand what I wrote in my posts.
I clearly said that diving in CoH3 is not as viable as in CoH2, therefore artillery cannot be as oppressive as it was in CoH2 as well, because otherwise we'd get even heavier arty feasts than we have now.

Your last point applies to literally everything in the game. Your suggestion of gathering wrecks to build an enemy unit also does not scale independently of game modes. My whole point was that your suggestion adds a very convoluted system that takes away focus from microing your troops. The current system is at least easy and streamlined in many ways. We'll have to wait for the release to see how the economy works out, especially across different modes.
4 Feb 2023, 12:54 PM
#45
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3102 | Subs: 2



I also noticed most fresh wrecks are so fragile they can be easily ran over, and don't seem to bounce shots like wrecks in coh2

If the resource economy worked similar to CoH2 (which would be bad), I could even imagine that the recovery vehicle is worse in 4v4 than e.g. in 3v3, depending resource refunds after cancellation etc. If you overflow with resources anyway (at least fuel), there is less benefit of saving some by recovering a vehicle while still having the same - if not even higher - risks. But that is pure theocrafting from my end. I really hope larger maps will have more, but less valuable resource points so that income can be easier contested
4 Feb 2023, 14:11 PM
#46
avatar of OrangePest

Posts: 568 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Feb 2023, 08:03 AMEsxile


I understand what you're saying but do you believe the cost of building a recovery vehicle plus the recovery cost of the wreck will be worth it? Maybe for a tiger but I doubt it for other vehicles. I tried to recover a medium tank once and it took age to do it and on top of it you still need to repair it afterward.


In the match i did use it vs Cataclaw, it not only secured me a massive advantage, when i dealt a crippling blow is was about to ressurect his dead panther. Just having that ablity at the press of a button deals a massive mental blow because any loss they take they have to destroy the wreckage of no matter what or suffer greatly.
4 Feb 2023, 14:56 PM
#47
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17866 | Subs: 8



In the match i did use it vs Cataclaw, it not only secured me a massive advantage, when i dealt a crippling blow is was about to ressurect his dead panther. Just having that ablity at the press of a button deals a massive mental blow because any loss they take they have to destroy the wreckage of no matter what or suffer greatly.


Remember how people started destroying all wrecks in CoH2 against OKW to deny them salvage and then the same happens vs soviets when they picked their salvage doctrine?

That is going to happen.

Dives will remain risky, but then again, dives are not as needed due to lack of abundance of batshit insane rocket trucks.
4 Feb 2023, 15:55 PM
#48
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1


You didn't understand what I wrote in my posts.
I clearly said that diving in CoH3 is not as viable as in CoH2, therefore artillery cannot be as oppressive as it was in CoH2 as well, because otherwise we'd get even heavier arty feasts than we have now.

Your last point applies to literally everything in the game. Your suggestion of gathering wrecks to build an enemy unit also does not scale independently of game modes. My whole point was that your suggestion adds a very convoluted system that takes away focus from microing your troops. The current system is at least easy and streamlined in many ways. We'll have to wait for the release to see how the economy works out, especially across different modes.

original:
"Having vehicles generally recoverable could mean some good news for overall gameplay. Artillery can not be as strong anymore in large games, because the main counter to arty at least in CoH2 was diving a tank, which in turn is only viable if you don't hand over your vehicle to the enemy. "

By "can not" do you mean it will be less oppressive or it should be designed to be less oppressive?

Yet from first look of COH3 the easy access to healing/reinforcement in map it seem that the game will require strong artillery or else it will static camping around these points.
4 Feb 2023, 16:56 PM
#49
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3592 | Subs: 1



In the match i did use it vs Cataclaw, it not only secured me a massive advantage, when i dealt a crippling blow is was about to ressurect his dead panther. Just having that ablity at the press of a button deals a massive mental blow because any loss they take they have to destroy the wreckage of no matter what or suffer greatly.




Remember how people started destroying all wrecks in CoH2 against OKW to deny them salvage and then the same happens vs soviets when they picked their salvage doctrine?

That is going to happen.

Dives will remain risky, but then again, dives are not as needed due to lack of abundance of batshit insane rocket trucks.


Seeing how, at the moment, Panther and Tigers and Churchill are waaay above the rest of the mass, It's probably a good mechanism against them. Then again about the other units I'm not sure if it is worth it.
4 Feb 2023, 18:58 PM
#50
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3102 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Feb 2023, 15:55 PMVipper

original:
"Having vehicles generally recoverable could mean some good news for overall gameplay. Artillery can not be as strong anymore in large games, because the main counter to arty at least in CoH2 was diving a tank, which in turn is only viable if you don't hand over your vehicle to the enemy. "

I don't get why you quote this twice now. The meaning is still the same, and even if you misunderstood it the follow up posts made it pretty clear that diving in CoH3 could be less viable compared to CoH2. So nothing is "contrary to what I claimed". I always said the same thing.

jump backJump back to quoted post4 Feb 2023, 15:55 PMVipper
By "can not" do you mean it will be less oppressive or it should be designed to be less oppressive?

Yet from first look of COH3 the easy access to healing/reinforcement in map it seem that the game will require strong artillery or else it will static camping around these points.

I am not a soothsayer, I have no idea what Relic has planned. The section you quoted above is only one of multiple aspects that I mentioned, where Relic needs to take special care and thought in order to not break the game AND keep some vehicle recovery mechanic in the game.

We'll see how Relic handles the forward reinforcement. They'll surely need to tweak it, I'd personally prefer some longer setup/teardown for the med trucks in order to put more thought into where and when to place them down and how to defend them. Artillery would surely help to destroy these forward points, but I hope they'll manage another route. Spamming arty is already way to prevalent in CoH2 to the point where whole games are just decided by who has more artillery, not who organized better pushes. Obviously it is highly map dependent, but still. CoH3 should focus more on ground based pushes, at least in my opinion.
4 Feb 2023, 22:57 PM
#51
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1


I don't get why you quote this twice now...

To me it was unclear it was said in that post, I am simply trying to clarify what you have posted.
5 Feb 2023, 12:41 PM
#52
avatar of OrangePest

Posts: 568 | Subs: 1



Remember how people started destroying all wrecks in CoH2 against OKW to deny them salvage and then the same happens vs soviets when they picked their salvage doctrine?

That is going to happen.

Dives will remain risky, but then again, dives are not as needed due to lack of abundance of batshit insane rocket trucks.


I'm sorry but i don't think you understand what im getting at.


So i'll put it as clearly as possible.
A: diving has nothing to do with rockets or even artillery in 1v1, (unless you're talking about coh1 in which case you dive to use whatever button to hardcounter artillery/dive the calliope as rare as they are or whatever)

The VAST and i mean VAST majority of dives in the game, in 1v1. Which is what im primarily talking about, is to wipe and PUNISH your opponent. For example, a full hp six man squad gets on your point at minute... let's say around 7, you know you have an 8rad there incoming, so you engage with a half hp squad which you know will lose the engagement, but attrition him so you can wipe the unit. Your vehicle comes out, you chase him across the map, goes down to 1 model or something and you get greedy because you know at this point there should be no counter. So you get into the base, get the wipe and then hit a mine. Losing the vehicle for a squad. A fair enough trade, one that probably favors your opponent.


Except, your opponent decided to pick a commander that lets him deploy a resurection vehicle, and suddenly your even-ish trade. Not only gives him one of the strongest units at that phase, but puts you at a vehicle and resource disadvantage as he gets a DISCOUNT.

It's fucking ludicrous to even pretend that this is somehow ok. You literally already lost tempo by losing the vehicle, you lost tempo by taking a risk. But that's the core of coh, you take risks, gamble and try to read the odds in your favor. By making it so you double-punish someone for making a slight mistake, you are going to make the game boil down to ape-blobbing, sitting still, and rewarding inactive stupidity and reduce the game into vehicle blobs because now you HAVE to have a critical mass to do anything.

Which is exactly what happened in the pre-alpha, the majority of the games i had, was
1: Hordes of blobbing because the TTK punished you for trying to wipe things
2: Ensured that the most fun and exciting aspects of the vehicle play was reduced a fuckload if you were up against US/DAK. Maneuvering? Pointless, if you overextend too much and lose your light vehicle you could very easily see it used against you, so you had to do it in critical mass, either by going 3-4 (L6+8rad all ins) or by playing hyper defensively and crippling what should be a cohesive unit identity into becoming nothing but a defensive unit. The greyhound, crusader etc. You basically couldn't dive.

That's not to say that the recovery unit was used that much, it wasn't. but the sheer mental fear of going up against it made ruins the dynamics of the game, the epic feeling of throwing in an 8rad, losing it but killing 2-3 squads is fucking awesome. Or making awesome plays that fail. Just having that option takes away those moments, who the fuck wants to go all in when your opponent not only ALREADY has the defensive advantage, but also gets --your-- units back at a reduced price?


That said. I could be completely wrong, but considering the m3 recovery vehicle, was a massive value piece that not only allows you to combat repair under fire, recover vehicles, and is overall pretty cheap. I don't see why it won't be used. Because it will be. Maybe the DAK one won't, but I have a feeling as we get further into the meta, that people will pick up on some of the things I noticed with DAK and get to using that recovery vehicle as well.

Iirc it did require a side tech that was overall weak, which is likely why it didn't see that much play.


Edit: Also because i forgot to mention it, it doesn't need to recover vehicles in the first place, just having the ability to salvage and give repairs is a massive utility piece, save the resurrection mechanics for single player
5 Feb 2023, 13:32 PM
#53
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17866 | Subs: 8

I get your point, I got it a first time, but it really boils down, as you yourself have said to risk vs reward.

You risked expensive vehicle to wipe cheap squad, you made a reckless dive, being fully aware that opponent may have recovery vehicle and you've donated your armor through a greedy gamble you have lost.

You had all the information to evaluate if the risk is worth it and you went for it.

This is not a balance problem nor it is a gameplay problem.

This is exclusively bad decision.

People play CoH3 like it was still CoH2, but you should have more of CoH1 mindset and restrain yourself, armor is not as mobile, retreat wipes are not as easy and recovery vehicles need to be taken into account.

Hell, if you put down howitzer, you better not get it decrewed with random Dingo around or you'll have a bad time with that howitzer on opponents side of the map shooting right back at you.

CoH2 is fast paced game with risky dives for unit wipes.
CoH3, just like CoH1 is more about pushing front and holding it.
If you won't adjust your gameplay to that, you'll only have more regrettable encounters.
5 Feb 2023, 15:40 PM
#54
avatar of Smartie

Posts: 856 | Subs: 2

Katitov and others posted some good arguments why Recovery Vehicles may not be broken. But I have to admit that I dislike their current design. I remember one 1v1 game where my opponent destroyed my Tiger and resurrected it:^^ That was not fun at all. Myself and others strongly recommended to rework the recovery vehicles (I suggested it to rework it to a mobile, fast working repair station that take pressure from your pios) but Relic sticked to their idea so far - and that's fair enough. I simply hope that the keep an eye on this topic! Because in the end I want to play a game that does not punish players for dives but rewards them more than CoH2.
5 Feb 2023, 19:27 PM
#55
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 1287

That was not fun at all.


For you. lel
7 Feb 2023, 15:13 PM
#56
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

Keep mainline infatry with weapon and abilities that give them basic usage and give the rest of the units specialized weapons/abilities.


Suggestions:
Abilities like breach should not be available to the core infatry units so that one has reason to use specialized anti building units (flamers/mortars/...)

AT weapon should not be available to core infatry and again should be reserved for specialized units.

SMG units should have timed abilities providing defensive bonuses requiring player to make wise usage of them in order to be effective.
26 Feb 2023, 13:33 PM
#57
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

Other suggestions:

Fix loiter planes by adding more depth to them instead of destroying everything or being shot at first pass.

Change could include:
"suppression" for planes being fired by AA reducing their combat stats like less accuracy/damage/ROF.

A set time of loiter being invulnerable to AA fire so that they can fire before being shot down.

Call-in interceptors that would force CAS of the field for a mu refund.
21 Apr 2023, 09:49 AM
#58
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13476 | Subs: 1

"Forward Reinforcement Times

We have adjusted forward reinforcement to lessen the power of front-line reinforcement, especially during combat. This should dramatically lower the efficiency of forward reinforcing, making it less oppressive in larger games.

Reinforcement time of in-combat units located +45m away from the HQ increased by +100% for a total of +200%

Reinforcement time of units located +45m away from the HQ increased by +100% "

Glad to see that one of my suggestions about forward reinforcement point is being applied.
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