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russian armor

Tech test Design feedback

31 Jan 2023, 12:22 PM
#21
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17908 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post31 Jan 2023, 11:31 AMVipper
Another feature that has the potential for trouble is the recovery trucks. This should also be apparent from the coh1 berger experience.

Not really, unless it is apparent from someone extremely ignorant who did not played this or earlier test and has no slightest idea how these vehicles work.
1) It costs resources, a lot.
2) It takes time, a lot.
3) Countering it is no different then countering soviet and OKW salvage in CoH2, probably even easier due to abundance of AT in early game.
1 Feb 2023, 09:52 AM
#22
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13477 | Subs: 1

Another utility that could be added to recovery truck is selvage (turning into resources) of support weapon and wrecks.
1 Feb 2023, 10:20 AM
#23
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17908 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Feb 2023, 09:52 AMVipper
Another utility that could be added to recovery truck is selvage (turning into resources) of support weapon and wrecks.


Why are you making a feedback thread for a game you have never played and vehicles you have never used?

Recovery vehicles can salvage wrecks in CoH3.
1 Feb 2023, 11:05 AM
#24
avatar of PatFenis

Posts: 239

I may step out of line here, BUT to already worry about the recovery vehicles is kind of insane to me. Given how the game pace, time of the recovery and the attached costs made it quite burdensome for it to come into play to begin with (in online play).
Obviously the sample size of games due to the limited play test is way to small anyway.

Even on top of that to compare it with the coh1 shenanigans of the bergetiger is crazy. The recovery vehicles are not a tiger tank with a crane on top anymore. As far as i have seen, they are quite squishy trucks in coh3.
1 Feb 2023, 11:15 AM
#25
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13477 | Subs: 1

I may step out of line here, BUT to already worry about the recovery vehicles is kind of insane to me. Given how the game pace, time of the recovery and the attached costs made it quite burdensome for it to come into play to begin with (in online play).
Obviously the sample size of games due to the limited play test is way to small anyway.

Even on top of that to compare it with the coh1 shenanigans of the bergetiger is crazy. The recovery vehicles are not a tiger tank with a crane on top anymore. As far as i have seen, they are quite squishy trucks in coh3.

You are not stepping out of line and you comments are welcomed since they are not personal.

Timing for such changes in now since one should look at this mechanism early before one start wasting time trying to balance a mechanism that need overhaul and before balancing combat units becomes the main concern.

But the problem lies elsewhere and not in balancing these tracks.

The mechanism is the problem since it very difficult to balance especially across all modes where the number of wreck are vary greatly.

Imo the recovery trucks will either be pointless or OP under certain circumstances like being able to recover super heavy tanks.

With my suggestion balancing the performance of the unit will become easier while keeping a unique mechanism.
1 Feb 2023, 12:35 PM
#26
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 1330



Why are you making a feedback thread for a game you have never played and vehicles you have never used?

Recovery vehicles can salvage wrecks in CoH3.


I lmfao'd at this.
1 Feb 2023, 13:09 PM
#27
avatar of PatFenis

Posts: 239

jump backJump back to quoted post1 Feb 2023, 11:15 AMVipper



Imo the recovery trucks will either be pointless or OP under certain circumstances like being able to recover super heavy tanks.

With my suggestion balancing the performance of the unit will become easier while keeping a unique mechanism.


I think relic wants to keep the possibility of "capturing enemy vehicles" in the game but instead of locking the possibility behind one faction (coh1) or leaving it to a bs RNG mechanic (coh2).

They try to actually play around it balance-wise with more access to such recovery vehicles, which are more fragile in turn and added costs to the recovery (Which as of right now are quite hefty).

In this way, it would make it possible for tournaments for example to minimize what used to be RNG without modding the game (coh2) by simply disallowing vehicle recovery.

So in the end for me, I dont mind if its really hard to pull off or it being a "once in while" thing thus probably considered pointless.
Its a waaaaay better mechanic than abandon criticals imo.
1 Feb 2023, 13:33 PM
#28
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13477 | Subs: 1



I think relic wants to keep the possibility of "capturing enemy vehicles" in the game but instead of locking the possibility behind one faction (coh1) or leaving it to a bs RNG mechanic (coh2).

That is good and actually in line with real life since German used captured vehicles all the time especially in Africa.

I am not suggesting to completely remove the mechanism.

My suggestions takes that into account since one would be allowed to be build other faction vehicles if enough are recover...

They try to actually play around it balance-wise with more access to such recovery vehicles, which are more fragile in turn and added costs to the recovery (Which as of right now are quite hefty).

In this way, it would make it possible for tournaments for example to minimize what used to be RNG without modding the game (coh2) by simply disallowing vehicle recovery.

So in the end for me, I dont mind if its really hard to pull off or it being a "once in while" thing thus probably considered pointless.
Its a waaaaay better mechanic than abandon criticals imo.

The implementation in COH3 is better than abounded critical.

The aim of my suggestion is to make recovery give smaller profit more regularly allowing the tracks to be a worthwhile investment even if the do not manage to recover a full vehicle.

Basically it make the profit of deploying such a vehicle more consistent instead of OP/No reason to build.
1 Feb 2023, 15:41 PM
#29
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3112 | Subs: 2

I like that they try the idea again. The CoH2 abandon created very tense moments and was quite fun at times, but also very frustrating to lose because of the RNG.

If it does not work out, they could still scrap the recovery. It does not look like any faction relied on it or had it as an integral part of their design. It was rather tacked on to a normally functioning faction.

Having vehicles generally recoverable could mean some good news for overall gameplay. Artillery can not be as strong anymore in large games, because the main counter to arty at least in CoH2 was diving a tank, which in turn is only viable if you don't hand over your vehicle to the enemy. Second, balance must consider units not overperforming in another faction. In CoH2, USF's ATG was mediocre for USF, but one of the best ATGs if you could capture it as Axis.
Obviously it can also mean that if Relic does not consider any of these points enough, it will be a complete fuck up.

I don't like the idea of gathering points and unlocking buffs by this, especially not recovering vehicles to fill a bar until you can build the enemy's vehicles. It has too many bad implications: How many vehicles do you need? Do they all count the same? Which vehicles do you then unlock? Do you unlock them forever or only once? Why can I build a P3 if I only salvaged Kettenkrads and some Sdkfzs?

The recovery cost and fragility of the recovery vehicle will determine how viable it is and where you can use it. It might still need changes, maybe even larger ones, but I'm okay with Relic at least trying the idea if they pay enough attention to the balance and design issues it will cause.
2 Feb 2023, 10:45 AM
#30
avatar of OrangePest

Posts: 568 | Subs: 1

I may step out of line here, BUT to already worry about the recovery vehicles is kind of insane to me. Given how the game pace, time of the recovery and the attached costs made it quite burdensome for it to come into play to begin with (in online play).
Obviously the sample size of games due to the limited play test is way to small anyway.

Even on top of that to compare it with the coh1 shenanigans of the bergetiger is crazy. The recovery vehicles are not a tiger tank with a crane on top anymore. As far as i have seen, they are quite squishy trucks in coh3.


The biggest problem is that it punishes you for making good plays. Trading for example a greyhound/8rad for 1-2 squads probably isnt worth it anymore (especially vs dak since its.............nondoc XD ).

Base diving practically cannot be done unless you are ending the game or 100% know your opponent cannot recover your vehicles. Whats even more ludicrous is the fact that only TWO of the four factions actually have it. So DAK can dive brits no problems, but god forbid if you try to counter dive.


Edit: Not to mention its already plenty fucking strong, it gets combat repairs. so you have to target it with AT (meaning its basically tanking damage for your tanks, which is an incredibly good thing and puts you ahead in trades) or they have to do far more damage while you cycle in tanks while pressuring, and since your opponent (if they are wehr) dont get anything like that, they inevitably fall behind in the trading and eventually lose. I did this vs cataclaw with great success.
2 Feb 2023, 13:17 PM
#31
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13477 | Subs: 1

I like that they try the idea again. The CoH2 abandon created very tense moments and was quite fun at times, but also very frustrating to lose because of the RNG.

If it does not work out, they could still scrap the recovery. It does not look like any faction relied on it or had it as an integral part of their design. It was rather tacked on to a normally functioning faction.

Having vehicles generally recoverable could mean some good news for overall gameplay. Artillery can not be as strong anymore in large games, because the main counter to arty at least in CoH2 was diving a tank, which in turn is only viable if you don't hand over your vehicle to the enemy. Second, balance must consider units not overperforming in another faction. In CoH2, USF's ATG was mediocre for USF, but one of the best ATGs if you could capture it as Axis.
Obviously it can also mean that if Relic does not consider any of these points enough, it will be a complete fuck up.

That does not make sense. Currently the risk of abandoning a vehicle is quite low. With recovery the chance of recovering an enemy destroyed vehicle behind your line would be almost certain if one's faction have these tracks available.


I don't like the idea of gathering points and unlocking buffs by this, especially not recovering vehicles to fill a bar until you can build the enemy's vehicles. It has too many bad implications: How many vehicles do you need? Do they all count the same? Which vehicles do you then unlock? Do you unlock them forever or only once? Why can I build a P3 if I only salvaged Kettenkrads and some Sdkfzs?

These are question that obviously can not be answered here since the require extensive planning the testing.

A rough idea though would be:
Number of vehicles need to be able to build a vehicle would be according to vehicle category (light,medium, heavy, super heavy).

Nope, when it comes to recovery wreck would only count for the specific vehicle or category.

Vehicles would be unlock one by one

answered in point 3

In addition one could use the wreck for other reasons. For example one salvages a dingo armed with bren now one can equip an infatry with bren, one salvages a hmg now can get a free pintle, one salvages one a PzIV, one can give skirt to PzIV or salvaged vehicles can offer discount to techs.


The recovery cost and fragility of the recovery vehicle will determine how viable it is and where you can use it. It might still need changes, maybe even larger ones, but I'm okay with Relic at least trying the idea if they pay enough attention to the balance and design issues it will cause.

Imo recovery cost and fragility are too few variables to be balance the mechanism across all modes when the price can be something as important as Black prince. Providing more tools would help balancing the mechanism greatly.
2 Feb 2023, 15:35 PM
#32
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3112 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Feb 2023, 13:17 PMVipper

That does not make sense. Currently the risk of abandoning a vehicle is quite low. With recovery the chance of recovering an enemy destroyed vehicle behind your line would be almost certain if one's faction have these tracks available.

Yes, that's what I wrote.
In CoH2, you dive based on the assumption that your vehicle will not be abandoned in case it gets destroyed. In CoH3, your vehicle will be recovered.
Diving a P4 for 2 Katys is absolutely worth it in CoH2 (unless RNG abandon kicks in). Doing the same thing in CoH3 would be roughly an even trade.

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Feb 2023, 13:17 PMVipper
These are question that obviously can not be answered here since the require extensive planning the testing.

A rough idea though would be:
Number of vehicles need to be able to build a vehicle would be according to vehicle category (light,medium, heavy, super heavy).

Nope, when it comes to recovery wreck would only count for the specific vehicle or category.

Vehicles would be unlock one by one

answered in point 3

In addition one could use the wreck for other reasons. For example one salvages a dingo armed with bren now one can equip an infatry with bren, one salvages a hmg now can get a free pintle, one salvages one a PzIV, one can give skirt to PzIV or salvaged vehicles can offer discount to techs.

It could be explored in a number of ways, but at some point the mechanic will become to fiddly to be attractive. Do you really want to gather X light vehicles to be able to build one of them? Your opponent could just not build the 3 needed light vehicles that you need. Unit classes are even less defined than in CoH2. How do you deal with that? If you recover a Stuart and a Greyhound, which one are you allowed to build? Which one if the vehicles are even from different factions? What happens if at least one vehicle is from your own faction or the other Allied/Axis? Would it then be possible to exploit that you can build a unit of your Ally?
Is it really worth the micro and resources to build a recovery vehicle, micro it to salvage a wreck and then get a free pintle (or any other smaller bonus) for it? I'd have to do that an insane amount of times to be worth it.
Your suggestion would take a lot of focus from the rest of the game. There's so many questions that will give rise to logical and gameplay problems. Even if you'd achieve a system that is fair and balanced, it would probably not be fun, and that's what playing computer games is all about.

At least the current system is easy to understand and logical. There's a destroyed wreck on the battlefield. You need a specialized vehicle and some resources (spare parts) to get it into working condition again. Or you just scrap it for what you might be able to use and get some resources. That's easy and straight forward, still has some decision making and pre-planning involved and does not need any counters or other indirect mechanics to work. It's an overall better design. Does it fit the gameplay? Is it balanced? We don't know yet, we'll see after release and the first months or patching.

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Feb 2023, 13:17 PMVipper
Imo recovery cost and fragility are too few variables to be balance the mechanism across all modes when the price can be something as important as Black prince. Providing more tools would help balancing the mechanism greatly.

To be honest I don't fully remember what the costs of recovery were. But if the recovery cost scaled with the unit's cost, it would already be a decent screw to tune balance. Especially if you don't get refunded if you need to cancel the recovery. You might get a cool vehicle for rather cheap, but pay resources, risk completely losing them, risk the truck itself and have an opportunity cost of not being able to use those resources earlier.
2 Feb 2023, 15:57 PM
#33
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17908 | Subs: 8


To be honest I don't fully remember what the costs of recovery were.

From what I remember, it was something between 70% and 90% of vehicles original cost.
The weird british AA tank from armored was like 80 fuel to recover.
2 Feb 2023, 16:09 PM
#34
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13477 | Subs: 1


Yes, that's what I wrote.
In CoH2, you dive based on the assumption that your vehicle will not be abandoned in case it gets destroyed. In CoH3, your vehicle will be recovered.
Diving a P4 for 2 Katys is absolutely worth it in CoH2 (unless RNG abandon kicks in). Doing the same thing in CoH3 would be roughly an even trade.
...

Still does not make.

Player A who dived lost PZIV and killed 2 Katys

Player B both killed an enemy PZIV and got one for his own...

Lets look at this another way. What in COH2 was a low chance event (having a vehicle abandoned) in now a much higher chance event only for the benefit of faction who have access to those trucks. Only now it take more time and it has a cost.


(edited)
2 Feb 2023, 17:44 PM
#35
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3112 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Feb 2023, 16:09 PMVipper

Still does not make.

Player A who dived lost PZIV and killed 2 Katys

Player B both killed an enemy PZIV and got one for his own...

Lets look at this another way. What in COH2 was a low chance event (having a vehicle abandoned) in now a much higher chance event only for the benefit of faction who have access to those trucks. Only now it take more time and it has a cost.


(edited)

That's not how it works. CoH3's recovery is not free, so you don't just get a P4 for your own.
The calculation (pure resources at least) goes as follows:
CoH2:
You lose the P4 (350 MP, 120 FU), but kill two Katys (720 MP, 170 FU), giving you a net gain of 380 MP and 50 FU. In those 5% of cases, it would screw you over and gift the opponent your tank, reducing his effective loss. At this point, you traded 350 MP and 120 FU for 380 MP and 50 FU. Since the chance is rather low, everyone would dive at 2 Katys in CoH2 for the loss of the P4.

CoH3:
If recovery does not cost anything, the same situation would be the same as if the vehicle had been abandoned in CoH2.
If we apply a 80% cost of the original price to resurrection, then the enemy can reduce his loss only by 20% of the P4's price. At this point you lose your P4 (350 MP, 120 FU) for two Katys - 20% of the P4 price, which totals to 650 MP and 147 FU. That's a clear win. Depending on additional mechanics (no refund for cancelling, fragility of the recovery vehicle, cast time etc), there is additional cost and risk for recovering a vehicle, at which point it does not become a nobrainer anymore as in CoH2.
These factors can tune very well how viable recovery vehicles are.
2 Feb 2023, 19:34 PM
#36
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13477 | Subs: 1


That's not how it works. CoH3's recovery is not free, so you don't just get a P4 for your own.
The calculation (pure resources at least) goes as follows:
CoH2:
You lose the P4 (350 MP, 120 FU), but kill two Katys (720 MP, 170 FU), giving you a net gain of 380 MP and 50 FU. In those 5% of cases, it would screw you over and gift the opponent your tank, reducing his effective loss. At this point, you traded 350 MP and 120 FU for 380 MP and 50 FU. Since the chance is rather low, everyone would dive at 2 Katys in CoH2 for the loss of the P4.

CoH3:
If recovery does not cost anything, the same situation would be the same as if the vehicle had been abandoned in CoH2.
If we apply a 80% cost of the original price to resurrection, then the enemy can reduce his loss only by 20% of the P4's price. At this point you lose your P4 (350 MP, 120 FU) for two Katys - 20% of the P4 price, which totals to 650 MP and 147 FU. That's a clear win. Depending on additional mechanics (no refund for cancelling, fragility of the recovery vehicle, cast time etc), there is additional cost and risk for recovering a vehicle, at which point it does not become a nobrainer anymore as in CoH2.
These factors can tune very well how viable recovery vehicles are.

Still does not make sense since one can probably also recover katyoushas so one player would have back all vehicles the other none...

Once more you should be looking at from a perceptive of how often this would happen. Abandon has something 5% chance (if I remember correctly) while now it would almost certain and it also available only to half the factions...
2 Feb 2023, 20:39 PM
#37
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17908 | Subs: 8

@Hannibal try to explain to him again how you have to pay for recovery and try to point out you don't get recovery vehicle for free either.

He seems to be firmly stuck 15 years ago, looking at utterly imbalanced coh1 version.
2 Feb 2023, 21:45 PM
#38
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3112 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post2 Feb 2023, 19:34 PMVipper

Still does not make sense since one can probably also recover katyoushas so one player would have back all vehicles the other none...

Once more you should be looking at from a perceptive of how often this would happen. Abandon has something 5% chance (if I remember correctly) while now it would almost certain and it also available only to half the factions...

You're missing the point. You can tune how much recovery is worth it by just adjusting a simple slider of how much original cost you need to pay. If the truck is fragile, artillery could just shoot the wreck both to remove the wreck as well as to attack the recovery vehicle. Which in turn is not for free, too. But all this discussion is just for dives. Most vehicles die near the front line, where the long recovery process is way more risky.

That not all factions have it can indeed cause balance issues, but my point was that I do not agree with your specific suggestion due to aforementioned reasons. The current system is design wise fine. If that's true for balance as well, we will see.
2 Feb 2023, 21:55 PM
#39
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13477 | Subs: 1


You're missing the point. You can tune how much recovery is worth it by just adjusting a simple slider of how much original cost you need to pay. If the truck is fragile, artillery could just shoot the wreck both to remove the wreck as well as to attack the recovery vehicle. Which in turn is not for free, too. But all this discussion is just for dives. Most vehicles die near the front line, where the long recovery process is way more risky.

That not all factions have it can indeed cause balance issues, but my point was that I do not agree with your specific suggestion due to aforementioned reasons. The current system is design wise fine. If that's true for balance as well, we will see.

When it comes to dives in coh2 it is safer to dive contrary to what you have claimed:


In coh2 there is a slight chance the the vehicle might be abounded, in COH3 there is high probability that the defended might be able to recover his artillery vehicle and the vehicle that dived (for a cost).

As for "just adjusting a simple slider of how much original cost you need to pay" imo there is nothing simple about that. One has to balance the cost across all modes and so accurate that its worth building the recovery track but not being op and one has to do that for all vehicles and all commanders.
3 Feb 2023, 07:23 AM
#40
avatar of PatFenis

Posts: 239

This discussion is going nowhere lmao.
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