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russian armor

Tech test Design feedback

26 Jan 2023, 22:40 PM
#1
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13449 | Subs: 1

I will start with improvement:

The new commander system is much better since player are allowed to makes choice.

The tech system again has the potential to be a huge improvement since player again have to decide what to invest in.

Now for the thing that do not look promising.

Forward healing/reinforcement points

I am not sure why Relic has not learn the lesson since it become obvious from the USF Alpha ambulance. Easy healing reinforcing on field and even worse the re-crewing of support weapons weapons leads to static blobbing game, reduces the value of flank attack and if one choose to attack make the winner of fight gain a huge advantage.

Suggestions:
Increase reinforcement time/healing and add a bonus in base sector. That would allow separate balancing of in base and out side of it.

Reduce the impact of trucks by allow them to heal/reinforce only passengers adding micro to them. Further reduce their impact by replacing their ability to re-crew support weapon with the ability to transport them. One could get a temp "AI" crew to load mortars/HMG and tow ATG.

Maybe add an ability for this trucks to set routes from base to a points where they would transport troops automatically.
27 Jan 2023, 15:28 PM
#2
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13449 | Subs: 1

Another issue is the transports and passengers.

Although I did not have to test extensively it seem that they work similarly to COH2 meaning that there is too much RNG involved. When a transport is destroyed passenger can remain unscathed or wiped.

Some times one loses both the vehicle and passengers and others although the vehicle is destroyed the passenger can accomplice what they where sent to do making play and counter play very unpredictable. Since the number of transports seem to have been increased this imo should be looked at.

Suggestion:
Lower the critical death to minimum, add an explosion that does limited friendly fire damage only but suppresses. That would ensure that the results of a transport being blown up would be consistent.
27 Jan 2023, 23:30 PM
#3
avatar of EtherealDragon

Posts: 1887 | Subs: 1

I agree that reinforcement time from Halftracks and Medical Trucks should be longer if it's outside base sector. (Probably not COH2 forward retreat point long... that always felt too long to me).

The "Recrew Team Weapon" ability probably needs some kind of cool-down or delay on how long it takes before team weapon can retreat/attack. OR maybe you can't use it in combat. Definitely could be one of those "stealth OP" abilities that takes a while to catch on.
27 Jan 2023, 23:57 PM
#4
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13449 | Subs: 1

I agree that reinforcement time from Halftracks and Medical Trucks should be longer if it's outside base sector. (Probably not COH2 forward retreat point long... that always felt too long to me).

The "Recrew Team Weapon" ability probably needs some kind of cool-down or delay on how long it takes before team weapon can retreat/attack. OR maybe you can't use it in combat. Definitely could be one of those "stealth OP" abilities that takes a while to catch on.

Glad you agree.

Imagine how little time a player would needs to reinforce heal and re-crew weapon if one manages to push the enemy off the field.

And how hard it push an enemy of field that can easily reinforce/heal on any point of the map.
28 Jan 2023, 02:27 AM
#5
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 1112

I agree that reinforcement time from Halftracks and Medical Trucks should be longer if it's outside base sector. (Probably not COH2 forward retreat point long... that always felt too long to me).

The "Recrew Team Weapon" ability probably needs some kind of cool-down or delay on how long it takes before team weapon can retreat/attack. OR maybe you can't use it in combat. Definitely could be one of those "stealth OP" abilities that takes a while to catch on.


Man it wasn't stealth OP, it was stupid OP. Imagine for me, if you will, allied tank horde, three flak 88 emplacements under constant mortar bombardment and tank shells.

Did you know that unlike in CoH 2, when a teamweapon is abandoned in CoH 3, it is abandoned at full health, no matter what? So even if the enemy has taken like 3 AT gun shots to the decrewed Flak 88, all you have to do is recrew it and it will be back to full health.

I would know because I was the one using those flak 88s against the Black Prince and Sherman 76 hordes lmao. A wall of MGs and Flak 88s = a little bit of trolling.
28 Jan 2023, 10:46 AM
#6
avatar of UberHanz
Donator 11

Posts: 247 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Jan 2023, 22:40 PMVipper
I will start with improvement:

The new commander system is much better since player are allowed to makes choice.

The tech system again has the potential to be a huge improvement since player again have to decide what to invest in.

Now for the thing that do not look promising.

Forward healing/reinforcement points

I am not sure why Relic has not learn the lesson since it become obvious from the USF Alpha ambulance. Easy healing reinforcing on field and even worse the re-crewing of support weapons weapons leads to static blobbing game, reduces the value of flank attack and if one choose to attack make the winner of fight gain a huge advantage.

Suggestions:
Increase reinforcement time/healing and add a bonus in base sector. That would allow separate balancing of in base and out side of it.

Reduce the impact of trucks by allow them to heal/reinforce only passengers adding micro to them. Further reduce their impact by replacing their ability to re-crew support weapon with the ability to transport them. One could get a temp "AI" crew to load mortars/HMG and tow ATG.

Maybe add an ability for this trucks to set routes from base to a points where they would transport troops automatically.


I feel you make a valid, balanced point. But I also believe it is too early to go down that route.

Indirect fire, off map artillery, etc. destroy these reinforcement strongholds quite heavily. Having your army around a med-truck is often a magnet for being bombed out of the game. Thus, there is a downside.

Would love to see more interaction between those dynamics in the game from high level players in 2v2+ team games, before we claim balance issues here.

The mechanic of reinforcing team weapons from a truck itself is great, as it adds to QoL and keeps your figthing force intact.
28 Jan 2023, 17:47 PM
#7
avatar of Rosbone

Posts: 1958 | Subs: 3

Forward reinforcing is a strange beast.

For noobs, it means putting all of your units in a pile waiting to be bombed to death. So it both helps and hurts noobs.

For pros, it means constantly pushing into the enemy and falling back until you break them. Ala Aerafields OKW strat, etc. So it adds depth to your attack strats and also requires some micro to keep your army alive.

It is also a counter to mortar/arty fights in larger game modes. I have won many 4v4 MAD matches because of reinforcing.

I am a big fan of not mass retreating your whole army. Every map I make, I ensure open areas that you can fall back to and reinforce. We spent a lot of time on map patches adding these features also. Hamburg was one that we moved a lot of objects to open up areas for reinforcing.

For Coh3 and smaller mode, you could design maps that DO NOT have open areas just outside the main fighting areas to counter reinforcing. You could add medium destruct cover objects to limit the mobility of reinforcing vehicles for example.
28 Jan 2023, 17:57 PM
#8
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17793 | Subs: 8

Forward reinforcing is perfectly fine.

Forward retreat points was the cancer.

If you struggle against forward reinforcing, that means you did whooping jack at adapting to situation you did not expected to encounter.

Skill issue.
But then again, what isn't with this OP.
28 Jan 2023, 18:23 PM
#9
avatar of Rosbone

Posts: 1958 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Jan 2023, 17:57 PMKatitof
Forward retreat points was the cancer.

Perhaps. But it was a decent counter to static defensive play as OKW in larger game modes. The constant pressure with a late ISG could break the back of defensive lines.

USF had early mortars that should be utilized before it got too bad. So I could see a case with them not having forward retreats.

But outside of 4v4 in Coh2, I do not see where forward retreats need to exist. I Could live without them.
28 Jan 2023, 18:48 PM
#10
avatar of OrangePest

Posts: 549 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Jan 2023, 17:57 PMKatitof
Forward reinforcing is perfectly fine.

Forward retreat points was the cancer.

If you struggle against forward reinforcing, that means you did whooping jack at adapting to situation you did not expected to encounter.

Skill issue.
But then again, what isn't with this OP.


Not true at all lmao. 2x mg loses to a head on charge of permanently reinforcing sections ( that are more cost effective if you stack volunteer+reinforce discount.)
28 Jan 2023, 19:28 PM
#11
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17793 | Subs: 8



Not true at all lmao. 2x mg loses to a head on charge of permanently reinforcing sections ( that are more cost effective if you stack volunteer+reinforce discount.)

That's more of suppression balance issue then reinforcement.
Pinned squads don't do much damage, even while reinforced.
28 Jan 2023, 20:12 PM
#12
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 1112

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Jan 2023, 17:57 PMKatitof
Forward reinforcing is perfectly fine.

Forward retreat points was the cancer.

If you struggle against forward reinforcing, that means you did whooping jack at adapting to situation you did not expected to encounter.

Skill issue.
But then again, what isn't with this OP.


It necessitates the use of an AT gun or tank/LV, yes. It's very strong until you kill the halftrack.
28 Jan 2023, 20:20 PM
#13
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 1112

Not true at all lmao. 2x mg loses to a head on charge of permanently reinforcing sections ( that are more cost effective if you stack volunteer+reinforce discount.)


Yeah, two MGs unsupported woild easily lose to ambublob. Now, 2xMG + flamers/ mortars? That's a little different. I told my friends to spam MGs and build a few marders. The ambublobs were pretty easy to deal with (suppress blob kill HT with marders).

And yeah the one thing I think that you miss, Vipper, is that CoH 3 has taken a step towards making infantry play strong even in the late game by giving some very good buffs to infantry, especially towards making then cheaper to field (lowering maintenance cost etc.). So the ambublob strategy is less about playing chicken with your manpower supply vs. your enemy, it's more about "I have a functionally infinite pool of manpower, I'm going to see if my enemy is smart enough to realize this and counter what's actually important (the ambo)"

Which ironically enough probably messes with the newbies more than anything lol because they don't know how to counter in the first place.

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Jan 2023, 19:28 PMKatitof

That's more of suppression balance issue then reinforcement.
Pinned squads don't do much damage, even while reinforced.


I think suppression in CoH 3 is fine. Every faction's MG is very powerful and can hold its own against one or two squads. Its when you get the entire 100 popcap of the enemy army facing it down is where it starts to buckle under the preasure.
29 Jan 2023, 14:49 PM
#14
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13449 | Subs: 1

Another issues Relic see to get wrong once more is weapon upgrades for units.

That includes:
special weapon like flamer and grenade launcher for unit with high entity count squad that greatly reduces the value of cover

LMG for high entity count squad that can maintain high DPS even when losing entities

Special weapon for mainline infatry that can become the core of an army and can cause issues when in numbers

Suggestions:
Keep core army units with basic
Give specialized weapon access to specialized/doctrinal unit so that one has reason to choose them over "mainline infatry"
29 Jan 2023, 14:53 PM
#15
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 1112

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jan 2023, 14:49 PMVipper
That includes:
special weapon like flamer and grenade launcher for unit with high entity count squad that greatly reduces the value of cover


So in your opinion, four models is a "high entity count squad"? The grenade launcher squad of fallschirmpioneers are 4 models large, and so are most flamer squads. *cough*except guastatori*cough*
29 Jan 2023, 15:12 PM
#16
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13449 | Subs: 1



So in your opinion, four models is a "high entity count squad"? The grenade launcher squad of fallschirmpioneers are 4 models large, and so are most flamer squads. *cough*except guastatori*cough*

No four model are not high entity count squads

guastatori is a good example of what I am talking about and what should be avoided.
29 Jan 2023, 15:15 PM
#17
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 1112

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jan 2023, 15:12 PMVipper

No four model are not high entity count squads

guastatori is a good example of what I am talking about and what should be avoided.


Alright well there was no need to lump the poor fallschirmpios in with the assault engineers and guastatori in that case.
29 Jan 2023, 15:17 PM
#18
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13449 | Subs: 1



Alright well there was no need to lump the poor fallschirmpios in with the assault engineers and guastatori in that case.

There are other units that fire grenades with auto attack if I am not mistaken.
29 Jan 2023, 18:02 PM
#19
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17793 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jan 2023, 15:12 PMVipper

No four model are not high entity count squads

guastatori is a good example of what I am talking about and what should be avoided.

Stop thinking with coh2 dynamics.
They do not exist in coh3.
Everyone has easy access to light armor and suppression.

Anti infantry elite squad made to counter cover and garrisons will do just that, use LV.
jump backJump back to quoted post29 Jan 2023, 15:17 PMVipper

There are other units that fire grenades with auto attack if I am not mistaken.

You are mistaken, there were only 4 man engi squads with that.
31 Jan 2023, 11:31 AM
#20
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13449 | Subs: 1

Another feature that has the potential for trouble is the recovery trucks. This should also be apparent from the coh1 berger experience.

Suggestions:
Change the mechanism that recover vehicle work. Instead of repairing the vehicle's wreck on field they could transport wreck to base.

Once there a number of perk could be given to player for recovering the wreck.

Bonus could include:
"free" upgrade for vehicles like armour skirt/pintle hmg/different main guns

Discount when building vehicles of the same type according to how many wreck of that vehicle have been recovered

The ability to build enemy vehicles if enough wrecks have been recovered.
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