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COH3 is going to be a massive flop

13 Jan 2023, 05:12 AM
#1
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2430 | Subs: 1

I can`t believe that almost 10 years after COH2 release the community is presented with a game that is a clear downgrade in so many ways. I will leave the gameplay itself out of this post because I couldn`t get myself to play enough to really judge it. Same for balance and things like that as they can easily be fixed later.

Sound

What can`t be easily fixed until release or even over the next 6-12 months is the horrific sound of this game. I am not sure HOW they have managed to make it so much worse than COH2 but somehow they did. The voicelines of the units are ok, there is not too much to complain about here from the factions I played (UKF,DAK, Wehrmacht) but the sounds of the infantry combat, explosions, tanks and artillery is just not good enough.

This is one of the main reasons why the game feels so much like a mobile game. Listening to COH2 battles is almost like listening to a hollywood war movie. You can hear how shells bounce off heavy tanks. You can tell how powerful a KT is just by listening to it shooting. This allows a level of immersion that`s amazing and papers over the many faults COH2 has(had). Just think about stuff like the USF HVAP shells and how you can easily tell they are powerful and compare this to COH3 where everything sounds so meh.

COH3 got the sound totally wrong. Many guns/MGs sound weak, uninteresting or simply ridiculous. If Relic didn`t have the budget to get this right they should have tried to copy paste stuff from COH2. The way it is now is unacceptable. Not even mentioning the fact that the sound in the multiplayer test is totally bugged and wrong positionally.


Graphics

The game has potential in terms of graphics but the current state is simply unacceptable. Anyone I have shown the game is shocked by how bad it looks compared to COH2. I am not sure what Relic is thinking here but it`s quite obvious that the lighting and atmospheric settings (weather, sun etc.) are just wrong. This, just like the sounds, ruins the atmosphere of the game and makes it feel very plastic. It`s going to be very hard for Relic to sell the desired number of copies with this shitty graphics. Who wants to pay 60€ for a game that ugly? Apart from hardcore COH fans I don`t see how this is going to convince people.

Please Relic get some help. Get someone in who knows what they are doing in terms of creating atmospheric graphics that help pull in new players. I realize that hardcore COH-players might not care about graphics that much but without the game becoming a commercial success there will be no long term support either. No one wants COH3 to become another DOW3.

UI

This is my biggest complaint. The UI looks ugly. So many icons/symbols etc. seem like placeholders. Will this be fixed until release? The unit bar is too small and hard to read. The unit icons in the buildings look terrible as well. It´s like this stuff was outsourced for the lowest possible pay. If you play COH2 after trying COH3 you will be amazed by how obvious everything is. This is exactly how UI should be. This is also a problem for the (too many) side tech options. Icons are too small, not obvious enough.

The icons above units are also awful and not intuitive. Again, why did COH 1 and 2 manage to get this right 10+ years ago but current Relic devs create this mess. The grenade counters for example resemble something you would find in a mobile game. The notifications in the top left corner are an abomination as well. WHAT are you thinking??? This is so obviously a downgrade to COH 1/2.

Again, PLEASE get help if you can`t get it right on your own. We don`t want this game to flop. Look at COH 1 and 2 and copy-paste if neccessary. The UI takes over a large % of the screen. It`s absolutely vital to get it right.


Another huge problem are animations. Some of them are decent while others are ridiculous and remind me of a cartoon or arcade-game designed for kids.

Other issues that I am worried about:

- Too many units, side techs and battle group options plus 4 factions at release. This just screams balance disaster to me. It will take very long to get it decently balanced.

- No classic hotkeys. Why?

- Camera FOV? Too close to ground IMO

- Too many LVs in T0. It`s like Relic presents the community cancer on a plate. One of the most enjoyable aspects of COH2 has been infantry engagements in the early to mid-game.

- Too much COH1 influence. The way the buildings look, the amount of T0 LVs, the visuals in general, elements of the UI, battle groups etc. I already know why this is the case but I find it questionable. Certain community members seemed to have a very strong say in the development of the game and made it so the game suits their preferences.

- TTK is too long. Infantry combat feels odd.

- VPs go down way too quick


13 Jan 2023, 05:59 AM
#2
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 857

I like it as it is for the most part. Fuck esports gamers and their incessant whining to balance the fun out of every game they want to make money off competitions for. Axis and allies have a million sidegrades and techs and it feels like the wild west and I'm having fun playing the game again trying to find what works and what doesn't.

I would easily buy this game at release if they keep polishing and improving it. And no, this isn't pre order cope. I don't pre order, I think it's bullshit. I like CoH3, and if you don't, then go ahead and keep playing CoH2 just like the salty, crusty CoH1 vets did for the original. That's your preorgative.
13 Jan 2023, 08:20 AM
#3
avatar of simpelekees
Patrion 310

Posts: 159

I think it's great to hear this. But let's just play a little and enjoy it? It's a tech stress test, not a full release yet.

I thought coh2 was bad at launch (and balance meta was mostly quite boring). This game runs quite smoothly and feels intuitive.

Otherwise, my opinion:
- Graphics look fine to me. During alpha footage it was too saturated and had a bad contrast. It's true that it's less gritty, but since it runs so smoothly (even on my 1070), i think that's far more important these days than really detailed looks.
- Sound. Could be that you're right. I was fine with it for now, and Im not judging till final release.
- UI. Kinda agree that also the menu, etc. look a bit less gritty and more rounded. Still I'm fine with it.

What I would add is:
- It's great that it's releasing with a full fletched campaign for the campaign lovers out there.
- It has a lot of maps and 4 factions! It's a great release!
- Full mod support right off the bat!
13 Jan 2023, 09:20 AM
#4
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2933 | Subs: 2

I think it's great to hear this. But let's just play a little and enjoy it? It's a tech stress test, not a full release yet.

Just picking this part out for clarification: What you see now is 99% what you will get on release. We don't know how old the build is that they handed to us, but assuming that it is less than a month old, there will only be 2-3 months between this build and the release build.

That's not an awful lot. They're squashing bugs and search for errors that can only be produced when the game is released to a wide audience (like e.g. AMD GPU users getting constant bugsplats on startups, which Relic probably could not reproduce if they run mostly Nvidia GPUs and only have very limited AMD GPU test systems).
There will be no major changes in balance, graphics or gameplay. And that's not only me saying that, this is pretty much also what Relic said themselves when asking for feedback: Feedback will be incorporated post-launch, not pre-launch.
13 Jan 2023, 09:33 AM
#5
avatar of dasheepeh

Posts: 2062 | Subs: 1

as much as it pains me, i have to agree with OP

coh3 just feels so much worse than coh2 does, and it's beyond me how relic find (as i assume) the current state of the game acceptable for a new release in 2023
13 Jan 2023, 09:35 AM
#6
avatar of skemshead

Posts: 605

Not sure if it will be a flop due to massive casual fanbase, but I suspect many Coh2 competitive players will return to Coh2 untill the game is massively improved.

The game simply feels wrong. Relic are again trying to reinvent the wheel when they should be improving on the Coh2 model.

The graphics in many instance just look bad. The desert maps are just empty looking and devoid of character. The units on desert maps are extremely bad at standing out from the background. Tanks covered in dirt are just bland. The whole desert enviroment just makes for very drab and boring battles. It just looks horrendous.

The elevation feature is just annoying AF, especially when the camera bobs up and down. Surely someone at relic should have noticed the potential for problems in this area. Guarantee map makers will all slowly reduce elevation on maps due to complaints. Casuals will think this is an exciting new feature because they are ignorant of the problems it cause and will ignore any frustation. Long term competive players will likely grow to loathe the feature.

The unit icons are beyond bad. So much information overload. Useless information just cluttering up the screen. For example coh2 icons have the squad size position neatly within the shield. Coh3 squad numbers stick out like a pair of ugly old dogs balls. Its just amateur crap and completely detracts from the visual appeal of the game.


Screen panning is just jerky AF. Add in elevation bounce and the urge to vomit is almost unstoppable. I loaded a recent coh2 replay after trying Coh3 and difference is staggering. Coh2 is smooth and pleasant whereas Coh3 is just jarring and offputting.

13 Jan 2023, 09:59 AM
#7
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2430 | Subs: 1

Not sure if it will be a flop due to massive casual fanbase, but I suspect many Coh2 competitive players will return to Coh2 untill the game is massively improved.


Reading through Reddit and Steam forums I don`t get the impression casual players like COH3. Everyone is complaining about the stuff I mentioned. Graphics, sound, animations etc. are particularly important to entice new players.
13 Jan 2023, 10:47 AM
#8
avatar of synThrax
Donator 11

Posts: 144

I started to like it, but i'm also having alot deja vu moments from the coh2 release by reading this...and yes, coh2 was a huge letdown for so many things back then and and look how it changed over the years.

New players will come and replace some of the old guard and that's for sure. Noone expects from you to like it. Keep Coh2 up and running and maybe someday there will be even a patch. ^_^

For me it is something that needs to be replaced since i'm so excesive used to it, idk if that is good or bad, but it is definitely a welcoming change. ;)

Only thing i really miss is the Maxim. Haven't found the most disappointing unit in coh3 yet. :D
13 Jan 2023, 12:19 PM
#9
avatar of SweetrollNearTheDoor

Posts: 170 | Subs: 1

CoH2 might have been a total mess performance and balance vise at release but at least they really nailed the audio and visuals – the things that really added to the immersion and were a big factor in retaining players. Balancing is something that can be improved incrementally but visuals and audio that has been lefthanded is a problematic thing to fix without sinking a lot of resources into it.

Especially the audio design is so bland and takes so much away from the game. In CoH2 players can easily identify if a KT for example is fielded since you can hear it in the fog of war a mile away. Tank engines basically have a permanent mute button in CoH3 so you can’t utilize engine sounds to predict enemy movements. Everything just lacks “umph” – everything. Every battle truly tells a story while providing players with total immersion when the screen shows a massive explosion, but audio department disagreed and had active noise cancellation on. Except for the planes, big plane big engine big vroom.

It also heavily taxes the goodwill score of Relic when they are so truly dedicated to repeating the same mindboggling balance decisions that took years to fix in CoH2:

Call-in units without tech requirements: check

Call-ins without fuel requirements so map control does not matter: Gotta have those

Units with omnipotent maphacks: Game sense ™

Skillplanes that arrive instantly and delete full health tanks and inf squads: Skill issue surely

The commitment to stand behind such decisions is only enhanced by the fact that people who had to fix that garbage in CoH2 are now the people responsible for CoH3 balance at Relic.

Tl;dr it is not a Wish edition CoH but it definitely is an Amazon Basics one. At least it makes Dawn of War 3 release look polished.

10/10 on the ingame chat filter that censors words such as blob, con and second thou :snfPeter:
13 Jan 2023, 13:05 PM
#10
avatar of Rosbone
Senior Mapmaker Badge

Posts: 1806 | Subs: 3

The only hope for release is that they are showing an old build on purpose. So there is more pop and excitement when it finally releases.

I have not played it, but downloaded it to examine the graphics. The image histogram shows that every map is using a dense fog. So all colors are being pulled to the fog color. In a bright day scene there is not a color anywhere over 150 brightness generically. This has to be intentional because every picture on the Steam page looks amazing.

The weird green text on point flags looks like someones kid did the graphics for them. No longer are we seeing nice white/black contrasted UI sprites. But these bland horrible colored garbage. This has to be on purpose. There is no way this got out the door unless it was done on purpose to lessen the pop.

My guess is a good many things will be fixed upon release. If they are not, I would not even bother buying this game because Relic are so disconnected from reality they dont deserve a dime.

Sadly, that has been my fear all along with my few workings with them. They live in a "Relic is cool bubble" and cant see that we are throwing them a life raft to save them.
13 Jan 2023, 13:14 PM
#11
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2933 | Subs: 2

I've player a bit more against easy AI to have time to read and observe what is happening.
I also think it is mostly the audio an visual effects that are a let down.

Some of the audio is good, especially the voice acting and also some weapon sounds, but the majority is mediocre and many other samples are just bad. Flate, toneless, no depth. Not sure how to describe it differently. But they have also very cool examples. From a barrage, one shell hit a tank wreck and bounced off it with a satisfying "pling". This was really nice. But unfortunately these are not the norm.
Graphics in general are okay with room for improvement especially regarding readability on some maps. Explosions overall are pretty bad though, probably the biggest let down. The barrage of the DAK support tractor literally looks like a placeholder animation. The Stuka zu Fuß has a big boom, but the explosion looks everything but organic. The 2D sprites are too obvious and don't really look how they should. Generally, there is not enough dirt being tossed up. This explosion has visually a big radius, but doesn't really do enough to infantry.

The vehicle damage model is really nice, but I found it slightly odd that all vehicles at some point just looks like someone has dumped a boatload of coal on their front half.
13 Jan 2023, 13:21 PM
#12
avatar of AndresTCII

Posts: 168

It was so difficult to use the COH2 base and remodel all the 3D models for high polygonal ones and improve the textures for more realistic ones? And by the way, why do you reuse the COH2 models? Is this some kind of joke?
We should require Mod tools to modify models and textures, in order to demonstrate to relic how a game should be made... Or at least to fix their mess.
For me the biggest problem is the low polygon of the 3d models of the tanks, many games from 2010 had higher polygons, but reusing COH2 tanks is unforgivable, the tiger for example is practically the same, it's embarrassing, not even the wheels they are round, the smoke launchers are huge, identical to the coh2 because they are the same...buff what a laziness. And I don't talk about the textures of infantry and tanks..XD

13 Jan 2023, 14:08 PM
#13
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 2114 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Jan 2023, 13:05 PMRosbone
The only hope for release is that they are showing an old build on purpose. So there is more pop and excitement when it finally releases.

I have not played it, but downloaded it to examine the graphics. The image histogram shows that every map is using a dense fog. So all colors are being pulled to the fog color. In a bright day scene there is not a color anywhere over 150 brightness generically. This has to be intentional because every picture on the Steam page looks amazing.

The weird green text on point flags looks like someones kid did the graphics for them. No longer are we seeing nice white/black contrasted UI sprites. But these bland horrible colored garbage. This has to be on purpose. There is no way this got out the door unless it was done on purpose to lessen the pop.

My guess is a good many things will be fixed upon release. If they are not, I would not even bother buying this game because Relic are so disconnected from reality they dont deserve a dime.

Sadly, that has been my fear all along with my few workings with them. They live in a "Relic is cool bubble" and cant see that we are throwing them a life raft to save them.


This is the final release. We are well aware that a month before the release, there will be no real changes. Let's remember BF2042, its disgusting test and assurances: - don't worry, this is just an early build, everything will be great on release. And then what game came to release - disgusting. The purpose of such a demonstration a month before the release is to show the product in person and so that people would buy it. But I think only naive people will buy the game in this condition.
13 Jan 2023, 14:55 PM
#14
avatar of simpelekees
Patrion 310

Posts: 159

I agree that they often want too much new features when core gameplay, mods, ranked and balance are the core mechanics that keep u playing for more than a week.
13 Jan 2023, 22:24 PM
#15
avatar of Nickbn

Posts: 59 | Subs: 1

So @blvckdream, instead of posting your opinion and findings here, have you taken the time to send these points you have made to the official feedback forums of COH3's tech test? Might have more success getting things changed into how'd you want it to be by posting there than complaining here.
14 Jan 2023, 00:56 AM
#16
avatar of adamírcz

Posts: 944

If they can fix the scuffed UI and add necesary settings and functionalities fast enough, it will definitely build up a somewhat smaller but still relevant playerbase.

Like I already wrote in another thread, UI is F´d, audiovisual stuff is real mess with sounds, animations, unit visuals and icons needing a complete overhaul

The gameplay however, judging by early impressions, can really carry it hard, and buy some time for the rest to get fixed. There are some issues, mainly overall jank, it feels like everything has a significant response delay, but oh boy, do I see a shift in the right direction. The combination of significantly slower TTK with less laney maps is such a blessing. You have no idea what a great feeling it is, after years of CoH2, to finally be able to flank, soft-retreat, or decap points deep in enemy territory more than three minutes into the match, knowing that if you retreat at 70% health you will likely not get deleted by a blob on retreat.

The map seem just way better, the factions seem to have all the necesary basic tools, just at different timings or in different forms, to still maintain some assymetry. And indirect fire, oh my, look at the projectile speed, its way slower than in CoH2, so movement finally counters them the way it should. Then there is the autovault and autoreinforce, thats really a huge plus. Also, seeing more emphasis on LVs, while mediums appear to arrive slighty later is wonderful as well. And there seem to be far more variety regarding in which order you can unlock your techs and what to prioritise.

Ofc there are some issues and steps backwards in this regard too. VPs just seem to drain way too fast, there is already a pretty cancerous emerging meta with flamethrower infantry clusters swarming around forward reinforce trucks, map traversal takes eternity for units, the Guastatori perform as if Mussolini was the manager of Relic´s balance team, veterancy takes forever to get for all units, Tigor went from being a normal unit to a boss unit again, snipers should not have returned in the way they are... and maybe once the dust (and meta) settles and some proper repetitive cancer emerges, I will speak differently, but right now Im high on hopium.

Overall, there is hope and bright future if and only if they pull their heads out of their asses and fix the mess that so many things are and do it fast. Preferably even do another launch postponing and simply do more betas and demoes.
14 Jan 2023, 00:57 AM
#17
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 644

Rather than do actual work Relic is just making mods (COH2 and COH3 being mods of COH1)

Someone at Relic was like

"How can we re-release the same thing with zero improvements for some quick cash?"

Then they decided to put inferior sound effects, add a borderlands filter and call it a new game while pretending they actually did something that a modder couldn't have done better had they not crippled modding functionality.
14 Jan 2023, 01:02 AM
#18
avatar of skemshead

Posts: 605

Issues in no particular order.
The desert maps are truly repugnant. Nothing in the COH franchise history is more repellent. First impression is the game is running at 480p or that graphic settings are set to minimum. Everything is to use a popular description just looks washed out or faded. It is difficult to distinguish units from the environment. It also is very easy to become disinterested in the action because the game is so bland. The colour scheme or art design just fails to make an impact in any way.
The weather effects or vehicle wear in desert maps is also problematic. The units already look bland due to the beige colour scheme and failure to distinguish from the environment so adding dirt and sand to the unit skin just makes everything appear more dull. It is an interesting idea and in a European setting would look great but in Africa it detracts from the visual appeal of the game tremendously.

In my opinion there is an enormous overuse of bright colours. The colours in UI need to be toned down to a level similar in coh1 / coh2.
The icons / colours on resource points detract from the visual appeal of the game. Comparing Coh2 resource point animations to Coh3 resource point animations and the defences are night and day. Coh2 is subtle and blends into the background nicely. Coh3 is cluttered and visually detracting. The timer is off centre and the white flag icon seem utterly redundant. The timer colours being the same as the player colour is also overkill as it just adds more bright colours to the game. The issue is further compounded when multiple units with their own icons enter the circle to prevent the cap. It is massively detracting from the visual appeal of the game. The resource icons are too large and the colours chosen seem to stand out more than necessary. Coh2 resource icons are perfect in that they blend in so well you don't even see them during game play but if you look for them then they almost magically appear. Coh3 is a war based game, so the overuse of bright fluorescent colours is really off-putting. It is also further evident when compared to other WW2.

Unit icons compared to Coh2 are poorly designed and add to the visual pollution Coh3 seems to suffer from. Coh2 was subtle and unobtrusive whereas Coh3 turns into a screen full of icons as the game progresses. The issue is further compounded once the player adds control groups as an icon stack appears which looks stupid and distracting.

Notifications in left hand corner are just overpowering. I rarely ever read notification in Coh2 but the writing blended into the background was unnoticeable however notifications in Coh3 actually block out that part of the screen. Coh3 really has a problem of overuse of information and obstructing the viewing area of the game. Keep in mind many people watch this game online which I would say is now far less visually appealing than coh2 was.
Recommend changing style to be less obtrusive or implement option to turn of notifications.

Overall the game has a massive problem with visual clarity. Just about everything looks dull or faded. Units often blend into the environment far too much especially on the desert maps. Add in the over use of fluorescent colours, notifications and bloated unit icons and the game just appears visually unappealing.
TBH I think the pre Alpha graphics were far better in regard to unit visibility and just a better game experience overall.
14 Jan 2023, 03:58 AM
#19
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2430 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Jan 2023, 22:24 PMNickbn
So @blvckdream, instead of posting your opinion and findings here, have you taken the time to send these points you have made to the official feedback forums of COH3's tech test? Might have more success getting things changed into how'd you want it to be by posting there than complaining here.


There are endless complaints about the very same things already and I am pretty sure Relic reads these forums as well. I just looked through the official forums and there are countless posts about UI, graphics, sound already. All of them complaining about the same issues.
14 Jan 2023, 07:31 AM
#20
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 857

but right now Im high on hopium.

Overall, there is hope and bright future if and only if they pull their heads out of their asses and fix the mess that so many things are and do it fast. Preferably even do another launch postponing and simply do more betas and demoes.


I like how theoretically if you go infantry support company as US you could only build infantry and just outmaneuver the enemy with sheer numbers. I played axis and just the sheer amount and quality of US troops shredded my non elite infantry and made my tanks vulnerable. Don't sleep on the infantry company...

Also, playing air support company + airborne commander... absolutely my favorite combo in the game. It's basicaly CoH2 wehr CAS doctrine but way better.

If you set it up right you can get
1. Smoke drop OR Recon loiter
2. 160 manpower for 80 muni + healing crates supply drop (dont have to tech medical at base)
3. FREE Recon overflight that gives sight when upgraded
4. P47 strafing run
5. 60 muni stuka (p47) dive bomb
6. P47 AT Rocket Strafe OR Carpet bombing run

American air support is amazing.
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