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sniper idea

24 Nov 2022, 12:37 PM
#1
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 2204 | Subs: 1

just watched AE s video in which he said Orangepest hates snipers. me too actually, because snipers need to have more downsides. best would be to remove them altogether

in coh1 they had cloak everywhere, long sight, and sniper range. that s why i actually stopped coh1

the context sensitive cloak in coh2 is a good start.

my further suggestion would be a Cone-Shaped LoS like the SU85 has which would enhance it's role a a unit to be supported, however risky players who want to invest micro can also it as spotter, lone wolf etc.,

counterplay against it with ambushes etc. would also be more rewarded

thoughts?
24 Nov 2022, 12:42 PM
#2
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13267 | Subs: 1

Sniper should be a counter to support weapon not infatry.

I would rather have the sniper ability replaced by either damage or Pathfinder/JLI type of critical kill

and the ability to snipe team weapon crews

or to have to set as static "support weapon" in order to snipe.
24 Nov 2022, 12:54 PM
#3
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 2756 | Subs: 4

Snipers would be fixed imo if you would actually get punished for getting caught out of position. If a sniper can retreat directly through assault grenadiers or two rifle units and still survive, something is just wrong.

Just increase target size to let's say a value between 1.5 and 2.0 and call it a day :foreveralone:

Wouldn't even mind if all offensive nerfs to snipers get reverted in exchange
24 Nov 2022, 13:02 PM
#4
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 2204 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Nov 2022, 12:42 PMVipper
Sniper should be a counter to support weapon not infatry.

I would rather have the sniper ability replaced by either damage or Pathfinder/JLI type of critical kill

and the ability to snipe team weapon crews

or to have to set as static "support weapon" in order to snipe.


yes but they wont do that
24 Nov 2022, 13:17 PM
#5
avatar of OKSpitfire

Posts: 118

Not a huge fan of them either, though if every faction has access to them that would be a step in the right direction.
24 Nov 2022, 13:29 PM
#6
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13267 | Subs: 1

Snipers would be fixed imo if you would actually get punished for getting caught out of position. If a sniper can retreat directly through assault grenadiers or two rifle units and still survive, something is just wrong.

Just increase target size to let's say a value between 1.5 and 2.0 and call it a day :foreveralone:

Wouldn't even mind if all offensive nerfs to snipers get reverted in exchange

That might "fix" the retreat issue but would make sniper die form single volley from a mainline infatry/hmg...

If retreat is the problem in your opinion it is easier to change the retreat bonuses.
24 Nov 2022, 16:59 PM
#7
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 761 | Subs: 1

Snipers would be fixed imo if you would actually get punished for getting caught out of position. If a sniper can retreat directly through assault grenadiers or two rifle units and still survive, something is just wrong.

Just increase target size to let's say a value between 1.5 and 2.0 and call it a day :foreveralone:

Wouldn't even mind if all offensive nerfs to snipers get reverted in exchange


I'm sorry but a sniper retreating towards, through and away from basically all SMG squads will die a horrible death

snipers are already fragile as they are, stuff like lmg grens and jli get to basically execute them in a burst or two. Increased hit size means that wehr players will have an easier time suicide rushing a 222 into sniper
24 Nov 2022, 17:01 PM
#8
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2868 | Subs: 2

While OP's idea might fix some problems, I somehow doubt it would really balance snipers properly in the end. USF, OKW and to some extend UKF would still not have a good response to them. 3v3, 4v4 and some more narrow 2v2 maps will also not really change due to there being enough screening infantry and flanking being impossible.

If you'd want to stick with the current design, I'd make them slower out of cover and only gain normal speed in cover. That way they are less mobile and you can finally chase them across a field with normal infantry, they positions and moving patterns become more predictable and they are overall less efficient due to increased walking time. The slow down after shooting was an okay start, but in the end did not do an awful lot. It barely allows you to get your normal infantry into max range, at which point the sniper will get next to no damage due to poor long range moving DPS of all early game units.

My overall idea would be to make snipers more affordable 2-men squads and to remove the critical kill but give them higher damage and overall high accuracy instead so that shots can me missed when the enemy is in cover. They can then get recon abilities and be generally moved into recon roles. I'd personally even go as far to make one guy a spotter with long sight and the other one the sniper with the good rifle but less sight, but this is a quite complicated solution that is not obvious to the player, so I understand if that would need to be scrapped. This way they are less fragile, require less micro, can punish badly positioned squads and support and ongoing engagement, but not annoy the living heck out of you. They are more expendable and replaceable when lost, but can act as observers in the late game. Also, the defending player can actively reduce his bleed by positioning his squads well. This interaction is currently missing in the design of snipers which makes them annoying for the receiving side.
24 Nov 2022, 17:02 PM
#9
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13267 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Nov 2022, 16:59 PMKatukov


I'm sorry but a sniper retreating towards, through and away from basically all SMG squads will die a horrible death

snipers are already fragile as they are, stuff like lmg grens and jli get to basically execute them in a burst or two. Increased hit size means that wehr players will have an easier time suicide rushing a 222 into sniper

Some people and their usual biased rant.

Suggestion to increase size of all snipers = buff to wehr (after all it is a well know fact that only wehr players have access to light vehicles to kill snipers.)
24 Nov 2022, 18:13 PM
#10
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1482

Snipers should:
Have longer firing range than sight range. 360 sight would be 32.
Ability to focus sight (like looking through the scope). Similar to SU85 focused fire. Narrow cone, but long sight. RangeOfFire = SightRange = 50
That would also mean, that in that mode of fire, it would behave like a weapon team. Would be an extremely short setup time (to breath in, look through the scope and start firing), but would be a setup time.
Increase the Target size to 2 or 1.75.
Remove the slowdown after firing. Maybe some other offensive changes like RoF would be needed, but it would fix snipers retreating and not dying. Something I've seen aplenty.

High risk high reward. On one hand, if it's properly screened/supported by infantry, then you have no worries, but if you play a RolePlayingGame with your sniper, good luck surviving anything that comes close to you
24 Nov 2022, 20:18 PM
#11
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 2204 | Subs: 1

24 Nov 2022, 21:42 PM
#12
avatar of Looney
Patrion 14

Posts: 431

Imagine the sniper not being able to shoot while under fire. Or have the sniper only be camoed standing still in cover. So whenever it moves it's visible.
25 Nov 2022, 07:35 AM
#13
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3475 | Subs: 1

Soviet sniper isn't really a problem since they don't come with appropriate support before long, you can easily force him with a good push.

Ostheer sniper is an issue because you can have it, an hmg, pioneer with extended vision and a gren squad without much sacrifice early game then you get more grens and fast 222.

Imo, I'll propose to put more on sniper synergie with the rest of the army: put a 90% treehold on it so he can't snipe full heals model but only wounded ones.

25 Nov 2022, 09:21 AM
#14
avatar of OKSpitfire

Posts: 118

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2022, 07:35 AMEsxile
Soviet sniper isn't really a problem since they don't come with appropriate support before long, you can easily force him with a good push.

Ostheer sniper is an issue because you can have it, an hmg, pioneer with extended vision and a gren squad without much sacrifice early game then you get more grens and fast 222.



Lol yep the usual bias. The exact same thing from Katukov, as usual.

Making them even more vulnerable on retreat is a possibility... though I find the cone idea more interesting. Anything that would force the player to support them more to be effective would be a good idea I think.

25 Nov 2022, 10:07 AM
#15
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 761 | Subs: 1



Lol yep the usual bias. The exact same thing from Katukov, as usual.

Making them even more vulnerable on retreat is a possibility... though I find the cone idea more interesting. Anything that would force the player to support them more to be effective would be a good idea I think.



he got called biased because he said that wehr snipers don't need to sacrifice support weapons while soviet ones do (Ukf doesn't either, but they're UKF, lol)


aight
25 Nov 2022, 10:36 AM
#16
avatar of OKSpitfire

Posts: 118

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2022, 10:07 AMKatukov


he got called biased because he said that wehr snipers don't need to sacrifice support weapons while soviet ones do (Ukf doesn't either, but they're UKF, lol)


aight


For implying that it is somehow unfair that the Soviet sniper can quite easily be supported by a different set of units, yes. "Extended Vision" being perhaps the only genuinely fair comment in his post. Your point was even dumber.
25 Nov 2022, 14:43 PM
#17
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13267 | Subs: 1



For implying that it is somehow unfair that the Soviet sniper can quite easily be supported by a different set of units, yes. "Extended Vision" being perhaps the only genuinely fair comment in his post. Your point was even dumber.

If only Soviet had access to scout vehicle with 50 sight that can also protect the sniper from kubels or if only the Soviet sniper had access to something that provided him with extra vision like a flare.
25 Nov 2022, 15:25 PM
#18
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3475 | Subs: 1



For implying that it is somehow unfair that the Soviet sniper can quite easily be supported by a different set of units, yes. "Extended Vision" being perhaps the only genuinely fair comment in his post. Your point was even dumber.


Didn't used the word unfair, soviet sniper and tech around is fine and balanced. Ostheer's one isn't.
25 Nov 2022, 15:53 PM
#19
avatar of OKSpitfire

Posts: 118

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Nov 2022, 15:25 PMEsxile


Didn't used the word unfair, soviet sniper and tech around is fine and balanced. Ostheer's one isn't.


Fair enough Esxile. You did not use that word, I did misrepresent your point a bit there. Apologies.

Was mainly triggered by Katukov making the discussion about his usual agenda.
26 Nov 2022, 01:18 AM
#20
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 763



Fair enough Esxile. You did not use that word, I did misrepresent your point a bit there. Apologies.

Was mainly triggered by Katukov making the discussion about his usual agenda.


To be completely and totally fair to Katukov, diving a sniper with a 222 is going to happen way more often than other light vehicles because of the simple fact that unlike grenadiers, you have a visual indicator of whether or not penals can snare or not.
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