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USF Pathfinder spam is too efficient (2v2)

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7 Apr 2022, 11:01 AM
#41
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 2184 | Subs: 1

Should have used double kubels, against the only viable strat, faction on life-support (and objectively proven by experts to be the weakest) has. As for scotts just rush them with panther army :snfPeter::snfPeter:



jump backJump back to quoted post6 Apr 2022, 08:31 AMEsxile
Pathfinder spam is not too efficient, it's just the only viable strat for USF on 2vs2 atm.

I mean standard riflemen build hard lose vs 2 kubels build and pioneer/HMG combo. Once you understand that you understand everything about USF.





so therefore double Kübel the instawin strat of Doom for OKW ?

Damn why have i never seen it then?
7 Apr 2022, 11:27 AM
#42
avatar of minhuh064

Posts: 63

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Apr 2022, 10:30 AMVipper


"Basic english comprehension:

Pathfinder do see lots of action across all modes...=/= Nobody uses Airbone doctrine."


The argument that if pathfinder where effective everyone would use them is simply silly especially since strategies is effected by many factor like maps/team's compositions/commander picks from team and enemy team/personal preference.

Pathfinder do see lots of action and that is an indication that Pathfinder are OP.

So nerf Airborne?
7 Apr 2022, 12:21 PM
#43
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3465 | Subs: 1







so therefore double Kübel the instawin strat of Doom for OKW ?

Damn why have i never seen it then?


Lol, you didn't know last week OKW players could field KT and Sturmtiger at the same time, you seem to know too little about the game to made such sarcasm.
7 Apr 2022, 13:42 PM
#44
avatar of OswaldMosley

Posts: 62

Forgot to mention, but the WC51 and Path finders are the only real early game counter to MG + Sniper/ MG spam.
People wanna complain about USF having an effective commander, but no one makes mention of the fact USF is limited early game when dealing with Ost.
7 Apr 2022, 14:35 PM
#45
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 885


So nerf Airborne?

While we're at it, why are Airborne's pathfinder-manned-50cals self-spotting? 50->45 sight range nerf didn't do much at all. It should be a flat 35 sight range. Hell even their AT guns can blow you away more easily with 45 sight range(?)

This problem exists to a lesser extent with Axis recon squads as well, but usually it's much harder to give them an MG to man.
7 Apr 2022, 14:58 PM
#46
avatar of Bizrock

Posts: 206

I don't know why balance team gives so much power to recon units like Pathfinders, JLIs and even snipers. Pathfinders actually are better at combat them rifleman, why? And JLI can be even better than obers, this is crazy.
Recon units should primary do recon, them the combat aspect should be second.

And why Pathfinders loses his camouflage while moving while JLI starts with almost sniper camouflage?
A lot of things should change.

But again, the main reason why USF always do cheese strats with especific commanders is because the base USF forces is lackluster.
7 Apr 2022, 15:13 PM
#47
avatar of thekessvn

Posts: 102

Because current game state is A move long range fight.
That why a offendsive recon like LJI, path better than another.

7 Apr 2022, 15:49 PM
#48
avatar of KoRneY

Posts: 625



And why Pathfinders loses his camouflage while moving while JLI starts with almost sniper camouflage?


They don't. As soon as they're out of camo they're exposed. Stormtroopers otoh ..
7 Apr 2022, 17:15 PM
#49
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 965 | Subs: 1


Again, we agreed that Path spam is a cancer strategy, however it is not the only one and FAR from being a click to victory.

Firstly CoH never even had "I win" abilities\factions. Even released UKF wast "I win" faction, despite being P2W. You can call them so, because enemy generally has to be just better then you and master very few unorthodox play-styles in order to be able to stand a chance against cheesy strats like that.
And it might have been even ok-ish, if using specific playstyle\unit composition would have at least gave you small upperhand over paths abusers, but they are just giving you a chance to stay in game.

Sure, Axis also has simular units and cancer playstyles, but at very least, they are not coming at the start of the game. You have time to tech\prepare and have at least some army composition.


If you do the math, you will realize that the USF player needs about 1000munis in order to equip the Rear with 2xzooks and 4xPaths with double BARS is in the 700s. In order to give you the stick you will need 240munis to equip 3 LMG42 to grens, 100muni to give PzGrens double shreck.

Pathfinders, if used right, already beat the shit out from both OKW\Ost inf early on, thats why you need at least 1:1 ratio inf vise, otherwise they will overwhelm you.
By the time Ost\OKW can get LV to support inf, USF player will be able to already have either 2 zooks\Dropped AT gun. By the time your inf will be getting upgrades, USF player will be able to already afford LV\Dropped 50 cal.

And again, you are bringing up late game stuff, yes USF player need shit ton of muni to upgrade all of his army with weapons, but no-one cares about it if paths strat main objective is to win you games with-in 15 min mark.


Such economic scale is not possible if the enemy is constantly moving a whole blob in the map.
Basically, just because this strategy cannot be beaten by heads on fight but rather with moving around and starving the enemy it is deemed "too efficient". Clearly not.

And this is why this strat isnt abused in 1v1, but instead in 2v2+ where you cant avoid fighting them.
7 Apr 2022, 18:38 PM
#50
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

Because current game state is A move long range fight.
That why a offendsive recon like LJI, path better than another.



This
7 Apr 2022, 19:08 PM
#51
avatar of Bizrock

Posts: 206

Because current game state is A move long range fight.
That why a offendsive recon like LJI, path better than another.



YES

Every competitive map in this game, 1v1,2v2,3v3 and 4v4 with almost none exceptions is a huge farm field.

1v1 pool have no city map, no chance for at least medium range engagements. Every engagement you have to close in and lose units and them they just retreat and maintain the manpower and the enemy will come stronger and stronger everytime.

unfortunately smoke is not that reliable like in theory.

Its sad because CoH2 was suppose to be focused in the eastern front, that had very close range battles, like in stalingrad, but none of them is covered in the game.
7 Apr 2022, 20:20 PM
#52
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 2184 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Apr 2022, 12:21 PMEsxile


Lol, you didn't know last week OKW players could field KT and Sturmtiger at the same time, you seem to know too little about the game to made such sarcasm.


at least i seem to be able to counter a 210 mp crap unit
7 Apr 2022, 21:23 PM
#53
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 637

Grenadier A-move blobs with double pak40, 222 and spotting scope brummbar is also too efficient in 2v2 and what 95% of the wehr one-trick players are doing, but I'm not making a thread about that :snfBarton:

This pathfinder meta is annoying cancer but some people rly need to stop pretending like axis don't have some absolute cancer strats as well. And there is counters available for both OKW and Wehrmacht against this.

This whole 2v2 USF situation is the result you get with a map pool & meta that are too hostile for Riflemen.



Agreed, it is annoying at most but easily dealt with. I laugh every time I play Axis and I see this strategy as it is so easy to beat.
7 Apr 2022, 22:04 PM
#54
avatar of Lady Xenarra

Posts: 885

Only Ettelbruck can save Axis from the pathscott tide in 3v3.
7 Apr 2022, 22:15 PM
#55
avatar of Protos Angelus

Posts: 1460

Lol. On Ettelbruck, OST can park a brummbar behind the top VP wall which is unbreakable vision/shot blocker and just keep bombarding the VP with ground attack, completely uncontested. Anyone losing to a path spam should L2P
8 Apr 2022, 06:17 AM
#56
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13153 | Subs: 1

...
TL;DR: Pathfinder as a unit is not OP, but the Airborn build order of 4x Pathfinders, into echelon zooks, then .50 cal and a forward ambulance is an early-game horror for axis. This is only a valid strategy when all these units are together and never split.
...

You have opened several issues.

1) Pathfinder

Are simply badly designed.

These reckon units need a better design where they should be support unit relying on utility having low Pop so that they can fit into to an army composition but not substitute mainline infatry.


They come with 2/3 elite carbines that are very good close range and 2/1 scoped carbine that are good long range. This weapon should not be mixed. They should have only long range weapon so they become vulnerable at close range.

The critical kill mechanism need a redesign since it become silly in unit that can be spammed. One could try making the scoped carbine an upgrade (similar to JLI) and the critical kill a timed ability for all jli also (maybe with mu cost).

There XP value is too low and they gain veterancy too fast.

The beacon is a nobrainer ability that needs a better design.

2) Forward reinforcement/heal points

FRHP including ambulance in my opinion are available too early and too strong and they are one of the main reason why camping has become a good strategy.

I read some post claiming that flanking is difficult due to maps design but imo FRHP point contribute much more to the issue.

Imo one could try a number of solution like reduce healing auras and adding a reinforcement speed penalty when used outside base.

Some of these unit could see further changes. For instance Opel truck fuel cost remove but now can heal only in base and passenger, Bunker can not be use both upgrades but command bunker heal occupants (maybe create medic kits).

3) Scott

And then there is the scott that is simply too difficult to kill. One should at least remove the defensive smoke from the unit.

One could also try two firing MODs one ballistic with long range but slow projectile suitable vs static targets and one direct fire but with sorter range.


Other opinions:
Other than that, I think that stock early-game USF options need to be looked at. M20 still taking years to build, despite 221 doing exactly what unarmoured M20 could be doing but 2 minutes earlier. .

This is a problem a continues buffing and can not be solved with more buffs. Actually things need to be slowed down instead of speed up and if there is a need for such a change it is the faction that need to be delayed and not the USF that need to be speed up.
8 Apr 2022, 07:27 AM
#57
avatar of minhuh064

Posts: 63

Yeah, just nerf the last straw US can hold on to be relevent and finally we can delete US faction. This game is just Axis vs Soviet game.
8 Apr 2022, 08:17 AM
#58
avatar of Infi.ESA

Posts: 48

Just put pathfinders on same condition like jgl and problem solved. 1 cp and weapon upgrade needed
8 Apr 2022, 09:25 AM
#59
avatar of theekvn

Posts: 266

oh, "bad design" again.
No, Pathfinder is balance unit. Problem comes from USF coredesign, doctrine and current game state.
Path spam only come back to all teammode since 4v4 tournament guided the Maxim + Path.

Now, when we "Redesign-Nerf" Pathfinder. Then which unit carried USF long range combat at possible cost ?. Which inf unit could take a buff to justify the nerf ?. New idea from balance team break the game like everytime they do and would them listen to community feedback before saying " Out of scope, now deal with it" ?.
8 Apr 2022, 09:47 AM
#60
avatar of theekvn

Posts: 266

Just put pathfinders on same condition like jgl and problem solved. 1 cp and weapon upgrade needed

there was a reason why Pathfinder from CP1 to CP0. Now you bring them back to that state and call it balance ?.
Adjust Path into JLI clone will lead to:
- Will you buff Path in 1CP since their scope rifle has lower crit than LJI and a squad itself got worse stat and vet compere to JLI ?
- Will you balance the cost of Path due to high cost to maintance 2-3 Rifleman, RE and Officer ?.
- Will you give Path more ability to fullil 1CP unit ?
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