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USF Pathfinder spam is too efficient (2v2)

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8 Apr 2022, 10:00 AM
#61
avatar of Infi.ESA

Posts: 48


there was a reason why Pathfinder from CP1 to CP0. Now you bring them back to that state and call it balance ?.
Adjust Path into JLI clone will lead to:
- Will you buff Path in 1CP since their scope rifle has lower crit than LJI and a squad itself got worse stat and vet compere to JLI ?
- Will you balance the cost of Path due to high cost to maintance 2-3 Rifleman, RE and Officer ?.
- Will you give Path more ability to fullil 1CP unit ?


lol, then remove the upgrade but put them back at 1 cp or live we current meta
8 Apr 2022, 10:07 AM
#62
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1051

I don't know why balance team gives so much power to recon units like Pathfinders, JLIs and even snipers. Pathfinders actually are better at combat them rifleman, why? And JLI can be even better than obers, this is crazy.
Recon units should primary do recon, them the combat aspect should be second.

And why Pathfinders loses his camouflage while moving while JLI starts with almost sniper camouflage?
A lot of things should change.

But again, the main reason why USF always do cheese strats with especific commanders is because the base USF forces is lackluster.


That's plain wrong, I am sorry.

All that changes is the timing, and nothing else. Minute 0 cuckfinders can rape every mainline, especially if spammed, but in no way should saying "AIrborne got replaced by paths" be correct. Obers, LMG Grens, etc etc can rape cuckfinders a new one.

The point of this thread is the timing. Not the combat performance of PF in and of itself.
8 Apr 2022, 10:09 AM
#63
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1051

Yeah, just nerf the last straw US can hold on to be relevent and finally we can delete US faction. This game is just Axis vs Soviet game.


If you say that unironically, then yes it's time to delete USF and nobody (apart from Protos Angelus) will miss it.
8 Apr 2022, 10:10 AM
#64
avatar of BasedSecretary

Posts: 1051

oh, "bad design" again.
No, Pathfinder is balance unit. Problem comes from USF coredesign, doctrine and current game state.
Path spam only come back to all teammode since 4v4 tournament guided the Maxim + Path.

Now, when we "Redesign-Nerf" Pathfinder. Then which unit carried USF long range combat at possible cost ?. Which inf unit could take a buff to justify the nerf ?. New idea from balance team break the game like everytime they do and would them listen to community feedback before saying " Out of scope, now deal with it" ?.


Making Paths like their OKW counterpart (require CP1 and Sniper upgrade comes at cost) will not "nerf" them.
8 Apr 2022, 10:14 AM
#65
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3465 | Subs: 1



lol, then remove the upgrade but put them back at 1 cp or live we current meta


The same should be done to all specialist/elite units that have seen their CP and cost reduced. The modding team literally made sure that all of them where more available and affordable and now people complains that the least powerful of them is a problem.

Path/pfuss/JLI/obers/Falls/guards etc... have all been made more accessible and cheaper while also being superior in many if not every aspects of their responding mainline infantry. The way people play OKW on 2vs2 could be titled How to depend the minimum on my volks to ensure winning, and same goes for for USF and UKF.
And if you don't do that with Ostheer it's solely because they don't have elite callin units and grens are already the best mainline on purpose.
8 Apr 2022, 11:26 AM
#66
avatar of Infi.ESA

Posts: 48

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Apr 2022, 10:14 AMEsxile


The same should be done to all specialist/elite units that have seen their CP and cost reduced. The modding team literally made sure that all of them where more available and affordable and now people complains that the least powerful of them is a problem.

Path/pfuss/JLI/obers/Falls/guards etc... have all been made more accessible and cheaper while also being superior in many if not every aspects of their responding mainline infantry. The way people play OKW on 2vs2 could be titled How to depend the minimum on my volks to ensure winning, and same goes for for USF and UKF.
And if you don't do that with Ostheer it's solely because they don't have elite callin units and grens are already the best mainline on purpose.


WRONG !

the big difference is, paths are already superior from stock. jgl, pfuss, falls, obers all need upgrades to be good and some tec. and thats the problem here, usa gets a superior unit instant.
8 Apr 2022, 12:11 PM
#67
avatar of OswaldMosley

Posts: 62


While we're at it, why are Airborne's pathfinder-manned-50cals self-spotting? 50->45 sight range nerf didn't do much at all. It should be a flat 35 sight range. Hell even their AT guns can blow you away more easily with 45 sight range(?)

This problem exists to a lesser extent with Axis recon squads as well, but usually it's much harder to give them an MG to man.

can't tell if ironic or actually a tard take
8 Apr 2022, 12:27 PM
#68
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 471

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Apr 2022, 06:17 AMVipper

You have opened several issues.

1) Pathfinder

Are simply badly designed.

These reckon units need a better design where they should be support unit relying on utility having low Pop so that they can fit into to an army composition but not substitute mainline infatry.


I do agree Pathfinder is badly designed. JLI & pathfinder shouldn't have existed. insta kill is too powerful mechanism in the hands of moral. I bet BT never dreamed of 4 barfinder spamming.

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Apr 2022, 06:17 AMVipper

They come with 2/3 elite carbines that are very good close range and 2/1 scoped carbine that are good long range. This weapon should not be mixed. They should have only long range weapon so they become vulnerable at close range.


I think that's intended nerf on pathfinder. carbine(elite or not) don't do serious dmg in my experiences in mid-long range where most of the combat for the pathfinder happens.

The critical kill mechanism need a redesign since it become silly in unit that can be spammed. One could try making the scoped carbine an upgrade (similar to JLI) and the critical kill a timed ability for all jli also (maybe with mu cost).

There XP value is too low and they gain veterancy too fast.

The beacon is a nobrainer ability that needs a better design.

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Apr 2022, 06:17 AMVipper

2) Forward reinforcement/heal points

FRHP including ambulance in my opinion are available too early and too strong and they are one of the main reason why camping has become a good strategy.

I read some post claiming that flanking is difficult due to maps design but imo FRHP point contribute much more to the issue.

Imo one could try a number of solution like reduce healing auras and adding a reinforcement speed penalty when used outside base.

Some of these unit could see further changes. For instance Opel truck fuel cost remove but now can heal only in base and passenger, Bunker can not be use both upgrades but command bunker heal occupants (maybe create medic kits).


AFAIK, they already nerfed reinforcement time for the forward reinforcement (after major setup etc). Kinda not sure why this topic has been brought up. It seems fine in 1v1 or 2v2 anyway. Not sure about 3v3 or 4v4. But nowadays all faction does have one right?

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Apr 2022, 06:17 AMVipper

3) Scott

And then there is the scott that is simply too difficult to kill. One should at least remove the defensive smoke from the unit.

One could also try two firing MODs one ballistic with long range but slow projectile suitable vs static targets and one direct fire but with sorter range.


This is a problem a continues buffing and can not be solved with more buffs. Actually things need to be slowed down instead of speed up and if there is a need for such a change it is the faction that need to be delayed and not the USF that need to be speed up.


After BT nerfed it's auto attack range to 50 - I say all is on the hands of player. If you want safe distance & precision, it requires a micro(barrage). auto attack isn't a big thing IMHO. All true power of the scott comes from the endless barrage which requires a lot of micro. And it does cost you a fortune for AI only unit. So... Just flank it with 1~2 P4 when you can.
8 Apr 2022, 12:53 PM
#69
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13148 | Subs: 1


...
I think that's intended nerf on pathfinder. carbine(elite or not) don't do serious dmg in my experiences in mid-long range where most of the combat for the pathfinder happens.
...

Nope that is not a intended nerf, it has been like that since the start of the game, but they used to be locked behind CP and IR Pathfinder had 3 entities.

Elite carbine is superior to riflemen M1 at all ranges, so it does do serious damage at mid range (the advantage is bigger at closer range).


8 Apr 2022, 12:56 PM
#70
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 471

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Apr 2022, 12:53 PMVipper

Nope that is not a intended nerf, it has been like that since the start of the game, but they used to be locked behind CP and IR Pathfinder had 3 entities.

Elite carbine is superior to riflemen M1 at all ranges, so it does do serious damage at mid range (the advantage is bigger at closer range).


What I meant was (intentional) debuff, but doesn't really matter that now I know elite carbin deals better than garand at all range.
8 Apr 2022, 12:58 PM
#71
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13148 | Subs: 1



What I meant was (intentional) debuff, but doesn't really matter that now I know elite carbin deals better than garand at all range.

Glad that I could help.
8 Apr 2022, 13:01 PM
#72
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3465 | Subs: 1



WRONG !

the big difference is, paths are already superior from stock. jgl, pfuss, falls, obers all need upgrades to be good and some tec. and thats the problem here, usa gets a superior unit instant.


Except Paths aren't superior to riflemen when they hit the field and funny enough but except pfuss jli, falls and obers are superior to volks anytime that's why we call them elite.

Path are only good when blobbed that's why top players call 4 of them and not 2 or 3 + riflemen. From experience Path begin to be a serious threat once you have 3 of them, below their firepower is usually not enough.
8 Apr 2022, 13:36 PM
#73
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 702 | Subs: 1

It would be funny if they actually change Pathfinders into JLI and give them the exact same op stats of the JLI.


you don't fight 4 paths with expensive upgrades that melt your infantry, instead you get two squads where each one snipes a model
8 Apr 2022, 13:56 PM
#74
avatar of Support Sapper

Posts: 1212

It would be funny if they actually change Pathfinders into JLI and give them the exact same op stats of the JLI.



yeah, many pp think make pathfinder "like jli" is just simply put them at 1cp with scope rifle as an upgrade while leaving anything else unchanged. Actually turn path into a jli exact clone in all aspect will be a huge buff and i have been waiting for it to happen.
8 Apr 2022, 14:04 PM
#75
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13148 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Apr 2022, 13:01 PMEsxile


Except Paths aren't superior to riflemen when they hit the field and funny enough but except pfuss jli, falls and obers are superior to volks anytime that's why we call them elite.

Path are only good when blobbed that's why top players call 4 of them and not 2 or 3 + riflemen. From experience Path begin to be a serious threat once you have 3 of them, below their firepower is usually not enough.

Panzerfussilies are inferior to Volks at spwan...

In addition Fall/jli/obers price gap from VGs is nowhere near the price gap between rifleman Pathfinder so you the comparison is not helpful at all. (And Fall/jli/obers are not available before minute 1)
8 Apr 2022, 14:11 PM
#76
avatar of Katukov

Posts: 702 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Apr 2022, 14:04 PMVipper

Panzerfussilies are inferior to Volks at spwan...

In addition Fall/jli/obers price gap from VGs is nowhere near the price gap between rifleman Pathfinder so you the comparison is not helpful at all.


Fusiliers have slightly stronger DPS than volks at max range, but are considerably weaker at close range due to reversed damage range


the fusilier upgrade however turns them into extremely broken infantry for the rest of the game though
8 Apr 2022, 14:30 PM
#77
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 594



I do agree Pathfinder is badly designed. JLI & pathfinder shouldn't have existed. insta kill is too powerful mechanism in the hands of moral. I bet BT never dreamed of 4 barfinder spamming.


Pathfinders have no "insta kill". The closest thing is their critical shot on models who have 24hp or less. The DPS on their snipers was nerfed too. Last I remember they dealt 16 damage on a hit, doubling to 24 for the crit, now it's just 10 damage on hit. I think the crit works the same though. Same for JLI but their crit threshold is like 60% hp or something.

Either way, a deathblob of units focusing one squad kills quickly anyways. 4 obers/ shocks/ LMG grens is going to shred too.
8 Apr 2022, 14:31 PM
#78
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3465 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post8 Apr 2022, 14:04 PMVipper

Panzerfussilies are inferior to Volks at spwan...

In addition Fall/jli/obers price gap from VGs is nowhere near the price gap between rifleman Pathfinder so you the comparison is not helpful at all. (And Fall/jli/obers are not available before minute 1)


You miss understood. I said Path and Pfuss aren't superior to mainline when they hit the field. JLI, obers, Falls are, that's why we call them elite like para or guards.
8 Apr 2022, 14:35 PM
#79
avatar of donofsandiego

Posts: 594

What I really don't understand is how people expect USF to play properly if every single f*cking unit the faction uses to play on an even field with axis units is nerfed until it's not scary any more.

I would never subject myself to the torture that is playing stock USF against ANY faction.

Seriously though, I do see the issues with paths. Just unfuck the faction. Seriously. Make the paths not a combat unit, sure, whatever. But give USF something in return. Make paras come earlier with their upgrades locked, I don't know.

EDIT: In fact, I haven't played USF AT ALL ever since I started playing SOV just because of how incredibly un-fun it is to get beat back by Panthers and panzergrens and lmg grens and just have NOTHING to contend against them with. If you pick the wrong doctrine or god forbid you try to pick a FUN doctrine, you're on a timer to just lose the game. It's as simple as that.
9 Apr 2022, 00:13 AM
#80
avatar of Jilet

Posts: 556


the fusilier upgrade however turns them into extremely broken infantry for the rest of the game though


Extremely broken infantry that loses to Penals at every range and every stage...
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