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OKW Flak HQ Lethality

12 Oct 2021, 08:00 AM
#61
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 2241



What I meant is; not all factions can be compared and every faction has something that seem to be OP where it really isn't that big of a deal.

As stated earlier; if the Flak HQ is used aggresively it can easily be destroyed by a AT-gun, mortar, artillery piece or off-map ability (same way as Axis have to deal with the BOFORs).


this is absolutly not true.
to deal with bofors is a lot more effort need.
it is way more cheaper, which means you can risk it to lose and build it more agressivly, which means it can be much more annyoing.
its much more durable, cause of brace.
its much more usefull since it has arty mode, ground attack and vet lvl.

12 Oct 2021, 08:22 AM
#62
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 626



Why is that?

truck(15 * 2) + medic upgrade(10) + upgrade(20) + medic(10) + flakHQ(90) + upgrade(30)
= 190

or If you go tier 2(45)
= 195

240 is I guess if you go both (which is very rare case in 1v1, unless you decided to go KT) but I wouldn't consider this as a base tech buildup cost because it is not optimal way.

That's like saying USF requires 260 fuel to tech up to the major
for
grenade(15) + weapon rack(15) + lieu(35) + cap(35) + tech upgrade(20 * 2) + major(120).

We both know this doesn't make sense.

USF's optimal(and playable) fuel cost is 15(weapon or grenade) + lieu(35) + tech upgrade(20) + major(120)
= 190
w/o any vehicle. It's almost identical to each other.

y, i screwed up. I did calculation in my spreadsheet once and just went with it, even though it includes (+50) AA HT. I must have felt extra lazy back then and just typed +50 in the formula:facepalm:. Never needed that spreadsheet since then until now. My bad
12 Oct 2021, 08:59 AM
#63
avatar of TehPowahOfWub

Posts: 82



What I meant is; not all factions can be compared and every faction has something that seem to be OP where it really isn't that big of a deal.

As stated earlier; if the Flak HQ is used aggresively it can easily be destroyed by a AT-gun, mortar, artillery piece or off-map ability (same way as Axis have to deal with the BOFORs).


No offense, but judging by your replies thus far and how you perceive the flow of the game I can tell you're not exactly a high rank player.

Stock mortars on their own absolutely can not destroy a Schwerer. They don't have the range or damage to keep up. The USF mortar is pitifully underequipped for this task, and the UKF mortar pit gets shut down LEIGs if you put it anywhere other than right outside your base. The only mortar that is up to the task is the 120mm, which is doctrinal.

AT guns suffer the similar problem where they barely outrange the Schwerer itself, and with the recent changes that makes the crews take more damage, you can easily lose your 320MP investment and then have it stolen away by the OKW, who will have no trouble doing so since all they have to do is walk a few meters into the protection of the flak.

Artillery pieces are doctrinal, way too inaccurate and slow to recharge to reliably damage a Schwerer, and are usually locked behind crap doctrines anyway.

Off-maps dealing with this is just...lol.

The biggest thing you don't seem to get, however, and what makes it obvious that you don't really play at a higher level, is that you seem to think everyone plops their Schwerer dead center in the map on a mid VP or some key chokepoint. Only phone-book ranked players do that. The problem is when this unit is placed defensively on a cutoff deep enough into enemy territory that you cannot attack it without a huge amount of risk, but then it still is a free defense for a cutoff, fuel, or VP, and often multiple depending on the map.

Most 1v1 maps are designed in such a way that one key point is close enough to each base that keeping it defended is more logistically feasible. This is partially to compensate the lack of early-game mobility and unit utility for axis factions - but as an allied player, a huge part of your life's blood is being able to use that mobility and versatility to harass your opponent's point. Even if it's well defended, you can still maneuver around MGs, AT guns, etc, and its this kind of tactile positioning that makes this game a joy to play and watch.

Now comes the Schwerer, which essentially locks down that already more defendable point near the axis base and makes it nigh impossible to come close to. Suddenly, flanking becomes useless since this unit not only suppresses but also kills infantry incredibly fast at max range, so a huge part of the game becomes null on a third of the map (usually). If the unit is on a VP, it allows the game to be dragged on far longer than it should under normal circumstances and gives OKW time to access arguably the best late game arsenal in the game.

Every other faction, at every point in the game, has to devote some effort and micro to both attacking the enemy and securing their more defensible points in the map. With the OKW, having this base structure lock down your defensible points effectively reduces a huge portion of your micro workload that no other faction has access to. It was excusable when OKW had a resource penalty and gaps in their core roster that made such things required for them to stay competitive, but they have since received massive overhauls but still retain this snowflake unit for whatever reason.

Once again, I'm not stressing that this unit is overpowered on paper (although its ability to model drop is over the top), but the skill gap it creates is pretty massive and glaringly obvious.

The best solution I can come up with is to reduce the lethality of the gun so it doesn't drop models at max range, and/or make the gun a timed ability - (it doesn't even have to have an attached muni cost) that way the OKW player will have to judge whether or not an assault on their point is coming and choose wisely when to have the gun open fire, and at least requires SOME micro and effort to use.
12 Oct 2021, 10:56 AM
#64
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3249 | Subs: 1


As stated earlier; if the Flak HQ is used aggresively it can easily be destroyed by a AT-gun, mortar, artillery piece or off-map ability (same way as Axis have to deal with the BOFORs).

I don't really disagree. Just don't see the point of it, but at the end of the day all I'm asking for is it take up a tiny bit of pop space
12 Oct 2021, 11:14 AM
#65
avatar of Alphrum

Posts: 776


I don't really disagree. Just don't see the point of it, but at the end of the day all I'm asking for is it take up a tiny bit of pop space


you mean like other units? like the bofors? didnt you not want to compare it with the bofors yet, want to apply things from other units to flak. If you want to add pop cap to it, then you better damn well give it brace and the ability to target enemy units as well as removing the toggle between AA and ground and finally buffing its AA to pre nerf levels
12 Oct 2021, 12:31 PM
#66
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3249 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Oct 2021, 11:14 AMAlphrum


you mean like other units? like the bofors? didnt you not want to compare it with the bofors yet, want to apply things from other units to flak. If you want to add pop cap to it, then you better damn well give it brace and the ability to target enemy units as well as removing the toggle between AA and ground and finally buffing its AA to pre nerf levels

*Sighs deeply*
The bofors has nothing to do with the flak hq and it has nothing to do with my opinion that the flak hq should have a popcost Like I already said, I think almost everything should have a popcost, such as bunkers as well. Unless you pay per each use, which is another option someone suggested

Calm the fuck down and stop making demands. Saying it needs multiple significant buffs just because I suggested adding a popcost of 5 is absurd
12 Oct 2021, 13:19 PM
#67
avatar of Alphrum

Posts: 776


*Sighs deeply*
The bofors has nothing to do with the flak hq and it has nothing to do with my opinion that the flak hq should have a popcost Like I already said, I think almost everything should have a popcost, such as bunkers as well. Unless you pay per each use, which is another option someone suggested

Calm the fuck down and stop making demands. Saying it needs multiple significant buffs just because I suggested adding a popcost of 5 is absurd


ppl compare the bofors to flak because they are both similar in terms of combat performance. The reason units like bofors and why bunkers should have pop cup is because you can build more then 1. imagine your someone who puts the flak in there base for protection, your paying popcap for a unit that sits in base the whole game. If you want to add pop cap to flak, encouraging people to use pop cap effectively, then remove the risk that if its destroyed you don't lose your tech
12 Oct 2021, 14:49 PM
#68
avatar of JulianSnow

Posts: 305

No offense, but judging by your replies thus far and how you perceive the flow of the game I can tell you're not exactly a high rank player.


High rank doesn't mean you can't understand how the game works. Since your whole gameplay seems to be countered by a static gun you aren't such a high level player yourself either ;)

and the UKF mortar pit gets shut down LEIGs if you put it anywhere other than right outside your base.


Really? cause the mortar pit greatly outranges the LeiG, especially with that new ability it which let it fire almost across the entire map (most 2v2 maps*).

Artillery pieces are doctrinal


If only brits had something for this.




Maybe you should play as OKW yourself and see your schwere get destroyed by everything except for infantry... or is it... (mortar smoke + penal satchel).
12 Oct 2021, 17:10 PM
#69
avatar of TehPowahOfWub

Posts: 82



High rank doesn't mean you can't understand how the game works. Since your whole gameplay seems to be countered by a static gun you aren't such a high level player yourself either ;)



Really? cause the mortar pit greatly outranges the LeiG, especially with that new ability it which let it fire almost across the entire map (most 2v2 maps*).



If only brits had something for this.




Maybe you should play as OKW yourself and see your schwere get destroyed by everything except for infantry... or is it... (mortar smoke + penal satchel).


Actually, I beg to differ. Higher ranks mean more experience, meaning you can see the potential for different units/factions differently. And I never said the Schwerer countered *MY* gameplay, only that it was incredibly annoying to play against and that its lethality from max range is too much.

The mortar pit does not outrange the leig at all, and to say it *greatly* outranges it is hyperbole that shows inexperience. Yes, the new barrage ability that comes with vet is nice, but it's range does not reach "halfway across the map" on all but the smallest ones, and the mortar pit is stilling a sitting duck since it can't displace when under fire, like the LEIG can, so it will still lose to micro'd engagements.

As for the Brit artillery piece, I hope you're not referring to the base howitzers. I really hope so.

Even despite all that, this whole reply only focuses on one faction, so even if they were good reasons (they aren't) it still doesn't address the problems other factions will face.

As for your last point regarding satchels, I believe I already said I'm in favour of adjusting the received damage from certain indirect and ballistic explosives in exchange for changes elsewhere.

Also, I do play OKW.


12 Oct 2021, 18:35 PM
#70
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3249 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Oct 2021, 13:19 PMAlphrum

imagine your someone who puts the flak in there base for protection, your paying popcap for a unit that sits in base the whole game.

If you actually read my posts instead of just whining about my idea, you would see that I said to make the flak gun a "free" upgrade that's available after after panzer authorization is researched. The only cost would be 5 pop or less

That way you can choose whether or not you want the gun as a part of your army. If you want to place it in your base, then just don't bother with the gun upgrade...

If you're gonna disagree, at least understand the idea before you do
12 Oct 2021, 18:56 PM
#71
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3151 | Subs: 7

you would see that I said to make the flak gun a "free" upgrade that's available after after panzer authorization is researched. The only cost would be 5 pop or less


Afaik that would be impossible. Apparently units can not have a variable pop cost that changes with an upgrade. We tried giving the UKF mortar pit a variable pop cost with 1 vs 2 mortars and it didn't work. I'm not sure if an HQ building could even have a pop cost.
12 Oct 2021, 19:01 PM
#72
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3249 | Subs: 1



Afaik that would be impossible. Apparently units can not have a variable pop cost that changes with an upgrade. We tried giving the UKF mortar pit a variable pop cost with 1 vs 2 mortars and it didn't work. I'm not sure if an HQ building could even have a pop cost.

Welp, fair enough. Didn't see that coming
Pip
12 Oct 2021, 19:06 PM
#73
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1555



Afaik that would be impossible. Apparently units can not have a variable pop cost that changes with an upgrade. We tried giving the UKF mortar pit a variable pop cost with 1 vs 2 mortars and it didn't work. I'm not sure if an HQ building could even have a pop cost.


Is it possible to spawn a dummy unit offmap when researching an upgrade, which is then killed automatically if the parent unit/building is killed?
12 Oct 2021, 19:11 PM
#74
avatar of leithianz

Posts: 375


Really? cause the mortar pit greatly outranges the LeiG, especially with that new ability it which let it fire almost across the entire map (most 2v2 maps*).


I can assure you that 2 leig is a 100% counter pick against mortar pit. The only and sole reason for 2 leig losing to it is eithe (or both)

1. You did not seprate two - hence one mortar pit barrage kills borth leig - or did not "move" them to a different spot when mortar pit starts to fire at your leig.

2. you did not used barrage at all

They do require not-that-hard micro, but mortar pit stands no chance against 2 leig.

And heavy HE barrage is not really a concern if you just micro a bit. Especiallt because it has 1.5 ~ 2 x cooldown and you can't use normal barrage once it is on cooldown.
14 Oct 2021, 16:10 PM
#75
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5268

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Oct 2021, 19:06 PMPip


Is it possible to spawn a dummy unit offmap when researching an upgrade, which is then killed automatically if the parent unit/building is killed?

Or invisible garrison?
19 Oct 2021, 03:53 AM
#76
avatar of Alceister

Posts: 14



this is absolutly not true.
to deal with bofors is a lot more effort need.
it is way more cheaper, which means you can risk it to lose and build it more agressivly, which means it can be much more annyoing.
its much more durable, cause of brace.
its much more usefull since it has arty mode, ground attack and vet lvl.


Bofors is piss easy to destroy if you prepare beforehand. All you need is a mortar or leig to keep hammering away at it and it will fall eventually.

It may be cheaper and more expendable than the Flak HQ, but it still represents a considerable investment on the part of the British player at the stage where it is most useful. Going for it costs about 355 manpower 45 fuel (upgrade plus building) which generally excludes the arguably better AEC.

It's not much more durable. By default it has two thirds the health of the Flak HQ. It only gets anywhere near the Flak HQ's durability with its third-level veterancy, and that requires you to pretty much throw units at it. Brace basically only works to keep it from dying as quickly under fire and at the expense of not being to fire at all, so it can't defend itself while it is active. Bomb it with mortars or whatever to force it brace, then get into position to attack it. And the suppression ability is not nearly as useful as you might think: certainly, it's no substitute for actual artillery, and more of an ability that can be used to support your forces.

Plus if you haven't noticed, the Bofors is quite wide: it is very easy for artillery units to land most of their shots on it. Flak HQ is pretty long but it is also quite narrow, so it's a little harder to hit in that respect.
19 Oct 2021, 09:38 AM
#77
avatar of vgfgff

Posts: 177



this is absolutly not true.
to deal with bofors is a lot more effort need.
it is way more cheaper, which means you can risk it to lose and build it more agressivly, which means it can be much more annyoing.
its much more durable, cause of brace.
its much more usefull since it has arty mode, ground attack and vet lvl.





brace is sucide ability.
Here a things.
bofor are defensive structure.If you use that button that mean that area will be undefended .It will turn to dust. not just bofor but whole territory.

If going emplacement you will lack of other unit.
It easier to not build any emplacement when play as UKF.

19 Oct 2021, 10:50 AM
#78
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 480

Just like the USF redesign being half assed, the OKW redesign was all half assed as well which has been one of the major reasons for balance issues in the game.

I would have liked to have seen OKW tech and trucks separated. For example British can make a forward HQ building (which isn't tied to tech). Battlegroup Headquarters (the medic truck) would have been equivalent to the British FHQ, Mechanized Truck would have just been built in Repair Bunkers that OKW could make and the Flak HQ could have been balanced around being its own seperate emplacement similar to the bofors.

From a design perspective this would have made sense but also would have been easier to balance as well.
22 Oct 2021, 03:19 AM
#79
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5268

Just like the USF redesign being half assed, the OKW redesign was all half assed as well which has been one of the major reasons for balance issues in the game.

I would have liked to have seen OKW tech and trucks separated. For example British can make a forward HQ building (which isn't tied to tech). Battlegroup Headquarters (the medic truck) would have been equivalent to the British FHQ, Mechanized Truck would have just been built in Repair Bunkers that OKW could make and the Flak HQ could have been balanced around being its own seperate emplacement similar to the bofors.

From a design perspective this would have made sense but also would have been easier to balance as well.

The entire point of okw as a whole was risk/reward. This is shown in their tech and their vet. You have to make choices to leverage the advantage of the trucks and accept the risk of losing them or pay for advantages you may not fully exploit but keep safe. It's well shaped after the risks of Germany attacking for Antwerp in an all or nothing hail Mary. Either it works and you win or you lose critical assets for nothing. From a design standpoint It makes sense.
29 Oct 2021, 19:03 PM
#80
avatar of Klement Pikhtura

Posts: 626

If anything I think Shwere should have less wipe potential, with more suppression and perhaps a bit more penetration. If you haven't lost a squad or two due to not knowing that there is a Panzer HQ deployed, then you haven't played as Allies xD Otherwise the building should not be changed. But maybe it is just me being used to Shwere being Shwere ;)
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